Monitor Listening VS. Actual Levels

[endertak]

Hi there,

I have a pair of Adam A7's and I have consistently been having the same problem every time I hook them up to anything:

Basically, they are too loud! Smile

I love that they can handle the massive output that they're capable of, but I would really love to know how I am supposed to be calibrating them. Here are a few questions that come to mind:

1. Should I really need to attenuate the input gain ~-13.5dB in order to have them active at a "listening level"?
My impression is that I should be able to set them to unity (0dB) and adjust things louder or softer in software/hardware.

2a. Even at -13.5dB, I find that they are a bit on the hot side so I have backed off in the output of my I/O box (a Fireface 800). Between the two of them, I have a nice level, but the fireface is attenuated down to -16db! I am finding that I have to do a similar attenuation for the headphones and the level meter turns out to be down about as low.

3a. I have various things going into the inputs of the Fireface- some seem too hot and some not hot enough. I know that the nature of synths/machines is that there are differing levels, but I was wondering if balanced connections would change anything.

3b. The way that I had the audio input set up is was -10dB levels (line levels). I would assume that this is correct, but there is also a setting for "low gain" on the fireface console software, and there is no mention in the manual for what this refers to in measurement. But this ends up being the more suitable for the Adams' Input.

* What is nice about the fireface (to me), is that I can have all of these adjustments where I back off of the gain and still see all of the input levels pre-fader. This has always been a dream of mine with various cheaper mixers.

Sorry to put so many topics into one post, but I find all of these individual points to be highly correlated so I thought that I would group them in order to get a better overview of the problem.

Thanks for any answers or insight as to my "balancing questions".

e

[vvv]

Get an SPL meter - I have a Rat Shack one cost mebbe US$30.

Many claim to monitor at 80-85dB; I do, with variation for specific purposes, ex., softer to check bass levels, louder to maximize alcohol intake.

[woodhenge]

Bob Katz has a really great chapter in his "Mastering Audio" book on proper monitor level calibration. I would HIGHLY recommend checking it out!

As posted above, you'll definitely need an SPL meter, and for the Katz method you'll also need a way to generate pink noise at -20dBFS. To condense things a bit, basically you pump the -20dBFS noise through your DAW to your monitors and set the attenuators to where the SPL meter hits 83dB. This will theoretically give you a 103dB peak when your DAW hits 0dB.

It took a while for me to get used to having a calibrated monitor level, but it has done wonders for my mixes. Things tend to be ULTRA-consistent from song to song, and I don't need to use compressors as a method for getting hotter track levels in the DAW. Plus I know I'm mixing at sane levels!

I hope this helps!

[endertak]

thanks so much for the reply.
yes, this certainly helps.

i had no idea that there was a standard for measuring levels as such, so now i have a good place to start listening more carefully.

best

[Snarl 12/8]

I do the poor man's (lazy man's?) method of the above. When I'm mixing I try to remember to set the monitors "just a bit too loud" to have a "normal volume conversation" over. It's very subjective, but it helped my mixes.

I thought your main concern was matching inputs and outputs of all the gear in your input and output chains. I'm actually thinking of tackling this in my setup. I have +4 outputs going straight into -10 inputs on my amps. When you said you were attenuating by -13.5 db it made me think of the +4 -> -10 difference (even though, for some reason, that doesn't add up to exactly 14db difference.)

You really should try to sort out what's what. Look through the manuals, google stuff, etc., until you know what level every jack that you're using is putting out or expecting to take in. It's actually not just a "level mismatch" in terms of db, but the two standards (+4 and -10) also generally are providing and expecting different impedences than each other, and this is where you can actually fuck up your gear or at least the quality of your audio. And you can't solve this aspect of the problem by just setting your faders and knobs differently. You don't really have much of a shot at "proper" gain staging if you don't wire this shit up correctly.

[farview]

When you said you were attenuating by -13.5 db it made me think of the +4 -> -10 difference (even though, for some reason, that doesn't add up to exactly 14db difference.)

It doesn't add up to a 14db difference because +4dbu and -10dbv are different db scales with different voltage references. The difference is closer to 11db between the two.

[woodhenge]

Yeah, a mismatch from +4 to -10 (or vice-versa) could really jack things up a bit.

If the rca inputs on the A7's are used, then the connections from the Fireface should be TS unbalanced -> rca w/ the -10 output setting selected. If it's the A7 xlr's, then he should be using trs balanced -> xlr cables with the +4 output setting selected. This should eliminate any weird gain mismatches.

Once this is straight, calibration will be accurate...

[endertak]

ok;
so, if I have some stereo pairs that are +15dB and some that are -10dB, what would the solution usually be?
FWIW, it looks like my interface (fireface) only supports setting the input levels to a SINGLE setting, one of the following:

1. low gain
2. -10dB
3. +4dB

??

thanks again

[endertak]

just out of curiosity-

what could get "jacked up"?
i am being careful not only to attenuate in software, but also on the adams', so there is no audio over-driving anything.

i'm unclear as to what could go wrong unless i were to send all levels in at full output without attenuation, right?

e

[endertak]

Yeah, a mismatch from +4 to -10 (or vice-versa) could really jack things up a bit.

If the rca inputs on the A7's are used, then the connections from the Fireface should be TS unbalanced -> rca w/ the -10 output setting selected. If it's the A7 xlr's, then he should be using trs balanced -> xlr cables with the +4 output setting selected. This should eliminate any weird gain mismatches.

Once this is straight, calibration will be accurate...

OH, right.
No, this is not what I was talking about.
I am already usig TRS balanced 1/4" connectors to XLR on the Adams.

But I am finding the following:
1. have balanced 1/4" to the adams,
2. set the input gain to "low gain"
3. set the output gain to -10dB

this seems to be the best overall setting for monitoring because it doesn't sound too loud. i can't imagine that this would be dangerous, right?

thanks

[woodhenge]

Yeah, your output connections are optimal, so the output calibration should be cake. I would still set your output setting to +4, though. Bring down the levels on the monitors to make things more tolerable.

The input side is a little different. Having only a global level setting makes things a little trickier, but not the end of the world. If the majority of your sources are -10 and the unit with the +15 output has an output level on it, I would probably just set the selection to -10 and bring down the output of the +15 source so it doesn't clip the inputs of the Fireface.

If the +15dB source doesn't have a output level adjustment, you're probably going to have to stick with the +4 or "low gain" setting. It's a tough call.

With the voltages we're talking about here, it's doubtful you'll do any damage (other than sonically) to your gear if things are off. That is, unless you pipe the +15dB source into a mic input. Then you might have a problem!

[endertak]

That is, unless you pipe the +15dB source into a mic input. Then you might have a problem!

Yeah; what's nice is that you can set the front panel inputs discretely.
Yea; bussing capability comes with responsibility.

thanks again for the help.