When to time-align tracks?

[woodhenge]

I've managed to thoroughly confuse myself... I've dug around a ton on this and other forums and read a TON of books and magazines, just to find major conflicting opinions on when to time-align tracks. I think you guys are the most knowledgeable, so I figured I'd ask here.

Generally, I always tend to time-align tracks when I multi-mic a guitar cab or kick drum, and the sound is always MUCH better than physically moving the mic or flipping the phase. Is this not something I should do?

I've also read articles where engineers will time-align all the tom mics on a drum kit to the snare or overhead mics. It seems you guys don't prefer to do that, and I'm curious why. I've had good luck in some circumstances doing that, but other times it didn't help at all.

Hopefully, you guys can de-mystify this for me! Thanks!

[chris harris]

Generally, I always tend to time-align tracks when I multi-mic a guitar cab or kick drum, and the sound is always MUCH better than physically moving the mic or flipping the phase. Is this not something I should do?

If it sounds good to you, then do it. My feeling is that since great engineers were able to get great drum sounds for years and years and years before the ability to time align tracks even existed, that it's more of a crutch than anything else. It's a shortcut to taking the time to really understand phase relationships.

I've also read articles where engineers will time-align all the tom mics on a drum kit to the snare or overhead mics. It seems you guys don't prefer to do that, and I'm curious why. I've had good luck in some circumstances doing that, but other times it didn't help at all.

I don't like sliding around drum tracks because of the phase issues. When you line something up, you may be improving the phase relationship at certain frequencies. But, you can be sure that you're also creating some phase cancellation at other frequencies. I also don't like to have to wait until later to actually hear what the drums are going to sound like. I'm a big proponent of taking the time to learn how to get the sound right to begin with.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

It seems you guys don't prefer to do that, and I'm curious why.

because it sounds like hell.

[cgarges]

If it sounds good to you, then do it. My feeling is that since great engineers were able to get great drum sounds for years and years and years before the ability to time align tracks even existed, that it's more of a crutch than anything else. It's a shortcut to taking the time to really understand phase relationships.

Agreed.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[woodhenge]

Ok... let me back-track a bit. In the case of time-aligning multi-miked guitar cabs or kick drums, I've already made sure the mics were in phase, equi-distant, and sounding good to start with. The time alignment in these cases is more like the "icing on the cake", so to speak. They already sound good without it. So I should just stop there, I guess?

[chris harris]

Ok... let me back-track a bit. In the case of time-aligning multi-miked guitar cabs or kick drums, I've already made sure the mics were in phase, equi-distant, and sounding good to start with. The time alignment in these cases is more like the "icing on the cake", so to speak. They already sound good without it. So I should just stop there, I guess?

If your mics on that guitar cab are equidistant from the speaker, then I must be misunderstanding what you mean when you say "time align".

[woodhenge]

If your mics on that guitar cab are equidistant from the speaker, then I must be misunderstanding what you mean when you say "time align".

I like to combine a 421 and a 57 on some cabs. Even with "proper" mic placement, things really seem to come to life if I nudge things a bit. This is not always the case, but quite often. It seems more necessary if I mic different speakers in the same cab.

[chris harris]

If your mics on that guitar cab are equidistant from the speaker, then I must be misunderstanding what you mean when you say "time align".

I like to combine a 421 and a 57 on some cabs. Even with "proper" mic placement, things really seem to come to life if I nudge things a bit. This is not always the case, but quite often. It seems more necessary if I mic different speakers in the same cab.

Sounds like maybe one of your speakers is wired out of phase with the others.

How do you decide which track to nudge and how much?
It really doesn't matter which mics you use or which combination of mics, if their capsules are the same distance from the source, then they ARE "time aligned". Either something else in the chain is wired out of phase with the rest, or your mic placement isn't as "proper" as you think it is.

[decocco]

I usually only do time-alignment if I'm mixing stuff that was tracked with phase problems. Some examples:

Guitar cabinets with multiple mics that sound phasey.

Inside and outside kick mics that sound flabby or anemic when combined.

Drum overheads that sound wacky(snare drum or bass drum sound like they're hard panned).

If nudging things makes them sound better, by all means, do it.

[chris harris]

or, perhaps you prefer the sound of tracks slightly out of phase with each other?

[woodhenge]

If your mics on that guitar cab are equidistant from the speaker, then I must be misunderstanding what you mean when you say "time align".

I like to combine a 421 and a 57 on some cabs. Even with "proper" mic placement, things really seem to come to life if I nudge things a bit. This is not always the case, but quite often. It seems more necessary if I mic different speakers in the same cab.

Sounds like maybe one of your speakers is wired out of phase with the others.

How do you decide which track to nudge and how much?
It really doesn't matter which mics you use or which combination of mics, if their capsules are the same distance from the source, then they ARE "time aligned". Either something else in the chain is wired out of phase with the rest, or your mic placement isn't as "proper" as you think it is.

Actually, it seems to happen with ANY 4x12 cab, not just one specific one. I've tried different mics, cables, etc. Very strange. Maybe I'm just hyper-phase-sensitive or something. Maybe it's not that big of a deal and I'm just being too nit-picky. Maybe it's just the way those 2 mics combine?

Generally, I do any alignment visually. Which ever one has the earliest transient is the one I align to. Sometimes it's only a few samples, but I can definitely hear the difference.

[woodhenge]

or, perhaps you prefer the sound of tracks slightly out of phase with each other?

That might just be the case, I guess. I wonder if I can get less latency between my ears and brain.

[suppositron]

My guess is you are making the front grill of each mic equidistant from the guitar cabinet and not taking into effect that the capsules inside the 421 and 57 are not the same distance from their grills. You can start off that way but you're going to have to move one of the mics forward or backward slightly to get the capsules the same distance from the speaker..

[kingtoad]

I nearly always time align bass guitar DI tracks to their amped counterparts. I don't find myself time aligning much else these days although I used to to it on certain elements of a drum kit back when I was less experienced.

One area I could still see it being useful is on a location recording with limited monitoring capability.

[mscottweber]

As you start nudging things over, certain frequencies will be accented and diminished due to the phasing. Maybe, on guitar cab at least, when you start time adjusting one of the tracks, the frequencies that jump out sound pleasing to you? Don't ask me to get too scientific here, but I remember learning in school that EQs are merely delays that cause varying amounts of comb filtering due to the phase relationship.

Like nearly everyone else has said, if it works for you, than do it. For me, personally, it seems like the more I mess with stuff(especially with drums) the worse it ends up sounding.