Some general ramblings about aesthetics and late 60s pop

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:50 am

surf's up wrote: Stuff like the Critters, the Association, The Mamas & the Papas, the Beach Boys, etc.

Almost all of those bands are really the Wrecking Crew with different singers. What you're digging is the sound of one of the best bands ever. Their only peers were the Funk Brothers.

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:13 am

Sorry. I didn't read the full thread before posting that last one.

So, yes,
#1 - The Wrecking Crew is a huge part of that west coast 60's sound. Those guys were some of the best players of their time and they played together every day for 10 years or more. You cannot under-estimate the players.
#2 - The budget in those days went to the front end of the recording process. That means you spent your money on the tracking session and overdubs/mixing were handled very quickly. You could do this because all your arrangement ideas were worked out in tracking, the records were tracked as close to what they were supposed to sound like as possible (i'm sure a faders up mix of any of that stuff would be close to the sound of the final mix), and edit's/fixes would involve cutting together different takes (as opposed to the micro editing that goes on today).
#3 - The studios were simpler (gear wise) but had great sounding rooms and many had echo chambers.
#4 - The songs were really, really, really well crafted.

If I was trying to recreate that kind of recording I'd spend alot of time on the writing and arranging, try to record as much of the music live as possible with the best band I could find and spend my engineering energy focusing on the sound of the band in the room instead of worrying about close micing everything. Get the room sounding good and then add spot mics to eliments that aren't cutting through.
Ribbons and dynamics will help as will the sound of real reverb(set up a chamber if you can).

In short, this kind of record is more about the musician than the engineer. Everything you do engineer-wise should be about making the musicians comfortable and capturing what they sound like as simply as possible.

McWoods · Post by **McWoods** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:56 am

In the case of the more rock oriented stuff, the instruments and amplifiers have got to have something to do with it too. Obviously you're not going to get very close to the Kink's guitar sound with an Ibanez through a mesa stack.

casey campbell · Post by **casey campbell** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:51 am

surf's up wrote:Probably my favorite tones of any instrument from this era are bass guitar, and carol kaye leads the way for me. It's just so awesome how powerful and rhythmically entrancing bass can be without needing to rattle everything in your house.

you said the magic word: "Carol Kaye"

take a look at her discography! holy smokes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Kaye

she's played on over 10,000 sessions.

you had folks back then that could really play. it was all about the music in those days.

cjogo · Post by **cjogo** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:20 pm

SO glad I was part of that era -- I can't run an iPod and still barely record with modern digital -- even had one of those lads from Smile record here .... that sound, I think, is was too hard ( & costly) to reproduce. Still doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed, though

mojobone · Post by **mojobone** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:41 pm

junkshop FTW

donny · Post by **donny** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:50 am

Re: Mariage Blanc song - to make your recording sound more '60s, i would recommend a smaller drum sound - these drums sound loud, crisp and clear but not '60s - drums were more of a background instrument back then in most cases. most drums were mono back then, so mono all the way with as few mics as possible. also, add a TON of analog reverb and maybe some tape delay. the vocal styling does not sound '60s either, it sounds modern ... i liked the sound and song but did not find it to be '60s at all - did sound B&S influenced though

cjogo · Post by **cjogo** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:50 am

casey campbell wrote:
surf's up wrote:Probably my favorite tones of any instrument from this era are bass guitar, and carol kaye leads the way for me. It's just so awesome how powerful and rhythmically entrancing bass can be without needing to rattle everything in your house.
you said the magic word: "Carol Kaye"

take a look at her discography! holy smokes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Kaye

she's played on over 10,000 sessions.

you had folks back then that could really play. it was all about the music in those days.

use to watch her play ---- she can really play 6 & 12 string guitar magically

jkretz · Post by **jkretz** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:11 pm

donny wrote:Re: Mariage Blanc song - to make your recording sound more '60s, i would recommend a smaller drum sound - these drums sound loud, crisp and clear but not '60s - drums were more of a background instrument back then in most cases. most drums were mono back then, so mono all the way with as few mics as possible. also, add a TON of analog reverb and maybe some tape delay. the vocal styling does not sound '60s either, it sounds modern ... i liked the sound and song but did not find it to be '60s at all - did sound B&S influenced though

thanks for the tips! i've been thinking of some approaches to drums that might get me what i want (which is a blend between 60s simplicity and more modern definition). i'm thinking i'm going to get most of the drum sound this drum from a pair of fathead ribbons, setup in blumlein, a set of earthworks sr77 sdcs for room mics. then i'll blend in close mics on the kick and snare...

i know that's a lot more mics than required, but i'm not looking to get the drum sound from "bus stop" - just something that sounds "sort of 60s".

for reverbs i'm gonna try to stick to the spring units i have around, pulled from an old twin and and old tapco mixer. i'm hoping these will get the job done - i guess we'll find out though!

donny · Post by **donny** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:58 pm

cool, fair enough ... i myself AM after the drum sound from "bus stop"! ha

surf's up · Post by **surf's up** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:49 pm

junkshop wrote:Sorry. I didn't read the full thread before posting that last one.

So, yes,
#1 - The Wrecking Crew is a huge part of that west coast 60's sound. Those guys were some of the best players of their time and they played together every day for 10 years or more. You cannot under-estimate the players.
#2 - The budget in those days went to the front end of the recording process. That means you spent your money on the tracking session and overdubs/mixing were handled very quickly. You could do this because all your arrangement ideas were worked out in tracking, the records were tracked as close to what they were supposed to sound like as possible (i'm sure a faders up mix of any of that stuff would be close to the sound of the final mix), and edit's/fixes would involve cutting together different takes (as opposed to the micro editing that goes on today).
#3 - The studios were simpler (gear wise) but had great sounding rooms and many had echo chambers.
#4 - The songs were really, really, really well crafted.

If I was trying to recreate that kind of recording I'd spend alot of time on the writing and arranging, try to record as much of the music live as possible with the best band I could find and spend my engineering energy focusing on the sound of the band in the room instead of worrying about close micing everything. Get the room sounding good and then add spot mics to eliments that aren't cutting through.
Ribbons and dynamics will help as will the sound of real reverb(set up a chamber if you can).

In short, this kind of record is more about the musician than the engineer. Everything you do engineer-wise should be about making the musicians comfortable and capturing what they sound like as simply as possible.

Thanks, that was a good post. My approach is coming together fairly similarly to how you suggested. Fortunately I won't be engineering this record, but I want to get a reasonably concrete idea about how to execute it so that I can pow-wow with the engineer and have a fairly well-formed plan going in.

Right now I'm orchestrating all the songs using a combination of MIDI and live instruments, and I'm really focusing on honing good arrangements that won't need to rely on a lot of technical trickery. One thing I've tried to do (but that is surprisingly tough!) is form the arrangements with panning and depth in mind so that even a basic stereo recording of the ensemble sounds balanced.

I'm thinking right now of basically recording things in three main stages, in chronological order: instruments done live, harmony vocals (a male quartet), then lead vocals. Then probably a final stage with some additional overdubs. The biggest challenge I'm thinking will be recording everything live. Hiring good musicians will take care of a lot of this. There won't be much room for close miking, and I hope to keep drum mics modest. There will be drums, electric bass, guitar, and piano on every song, with some combination of strings, horns, and wind on most songs. I am worried about balance and thinking it would eliminate a lot of the problems to save the bass guitar for overdubs. Then again, I dont want to potentially kill the groove.

Another question Im grappling with is whether to hire 8 string players or just 4 and have them overdub doubles/triples where i want to beef up the sound. The obvious advantage is it's cheaper, it's more space-efficient, and a smaller ensemble probably makes for smoother rehearsals/takes. I am definitely leaning towards just a quartet.

When I started out on this I made a few resolutions. One of them was my intention to be the worst musician to play on the record. Another was to fully demo every song in my home studio and walk around with it for at least a month as well as hand it out to a few select friends for critical suggestions before settling on the final arrangement.

surf's up · Post by **surf's up** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:50 pm

donny wrote:cool, fair enough ... i myself AM after the drum sound from "bus stop"! ha

me too! let me know how you got it, when you get it

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:09 am

surf's up wrote:it would eliminate a lot of the problems to save the bass guitar for overdubs. Then again, I dont want to potentially kill the groove.

Having the bass in the room doesn't have to be an issue. Just watch the volume. Also try using a guitar amp instead of a bass amp. Lots of those Carole Kaye recordings use a Fender Super Reverb for the bass amp. An Ampeg Portaflex can be pretty great too.
I would close mic or DI the bass so I could get a good sound without lots of volume.

Also, it might be worth thinking about doing strings as an overdub so you get the full advatage of the room sound without the band overpowering the strings. 4 players double tracked is often cleaner sounding phrasing and pitch-wise than 8 players together.

Trick Fall · Post by **Trick Fall** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:05 am

I've actually been getting some really cool low volume bass tones out of a SF Champ with a Weber speaker in it.

digital eagle audio · Post by **digital eagle audio** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:30 am

here are a few current bands that i think catch a pretty good vibe (though not in a cheesy retro way):
dr. dog
grizzly bear
the concretes
the castanets

figured i'd share

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Some general ramblings about aesthetics and late 60s pop

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