softening digital cymbals in mixing - LPF?

[joninc]

what do you guys like to do to make digitally recorded cymbals smoother?

favorite plugs? eqs? lpf?

tape emulation?

i am moving towards recording overheads a lot darker with ribbons but i have some older stuff recorded with very bright OH mics that i am trying to tame down...

any tips?

[mjau]

Yeah, I'm finding myself wrestling with bright cymbals a lot lately, mostly a function of my small space, so my overheads are a touch closer to the cymbals than I'd otherwise like them to be.
For me, the low-pass filter on the PSP Console EQ has been a really help. The high- and low-pass on that plugin work better than any other plug I've used, and help me tame the ~12k hash on cymbals while not losing articulation like some other eq plugins might do.
For obvious compression, Blockfish can do some cool stuff in terms of reigning in cymbals.

[joninc]

ok - i am just demoing that plug for kicks - so smooth sounding. but not LPF only HPF - are you thinking of a different plug?

[jgimbel]

Tape! (har). I'm in a small room with low ceilings, and when I'm having issues with cymbal brightness I usually turn to the PSP vintage warmer. Usually does the trick.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

de essers can really help lessen the pain. sometimes i find that it's the really high stuff like 14k and up... it can sound really hard and unflattering. but a low pass at 14 is pretty drastic IMO and will take a lot of air outta the snare.

the spitfish is great and free but only goes to 12k. i like the w---s de esser with a shelf at 14 for the really high hard stuff. used that a bunch on the last record i mastered, which was all sampled drums that sounded cool but sooooo 'digital'. helped a ton.

the fatso is also super helpful for this sorta thing...

[joninc]

cool - i'll try that too.

i got the fatso running on the drum buss

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i just saw in your ghost thread that you have the ubk fatso. what are the compressors like?

you could run the overheads out to that thing, hit 'em with a bunch of saturation and warmth and print it back to the computer...

[A.David.MacKinnon]

Have you got tape of any kind? Even a 2 track?
I often run things throught the 2 track and back into the session (recorded to a new track and slid back into place) to deal with issues just like this.

I've also been playing around with a crappy old Furman crossover/bandpass filter. When I use it as a HP/LP filter it works and sounds so much better than any plug-in I've tried. There's something to be said for twisting knobs till things sound good.

[joninc]

i don't want to mess with the phase - if i run only the Overheads through it then it will put them out of whack with the rest of the kit.

the UBK is pretty great. lots to learn and mess with - very vesatile. i use the glue comp a lot on drums and mix as well. getting the saturation and comp to work together is a little tricky but i am getting there.

[joninc]

I often run things throught the 2 track and back into the session (recorded to a new track and slid back into place) to deal with issues just like this.

hey dave - when lining stuff back up - how to you make sure they are really locked into the right place?

just nudge until they sound right? do you use some sort of fast transient as a visual?

[A.David.MacKinnon]

I often run things throught the 2 track and back into the session (recorded to a new track and slid back into place) to deal with issues just like this.

hey dave - when lining stuff back up - how to you make sure they are really locked into the right place?

just nudge until they sound right? do you use some sort of fast transient as a visual?

I usually just zoom in and line up the pre and post tape tracks and once it's about right I make the pre track inactive and hide it so it's not in my mix window. Then I'll nudge a bit by ear while checking phase if I have too. Phase can be a bitch but it can and does work (when it works). Honestly, I mostly do this with individual instruments or vocals but I have done it with kicks and snares and had decent results.
If you've got a 3 head tape machine it's worth trying.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

put some high frequency sound (like a triangle hit) at the start or end of the file, zoom all the way in and it's super easy to line up to the sample.

[losthighway]

You can get a huge tonal shift in your overheads/room mics with compression.

With eq, I can usually tame some unruly cymbals by creating a shelf (not a full on low pass, just a shelf) and reducing a pretty broad range of highs (I don't know, sometimes as far down as 2k) by just a db or so. Sometimes less will do it.

Comp-wise try putting a pretty low ratio and then setting it low enough that it's actually working much of the time. If you slow down the attack time, you will start to hear the snare and toms come back through the comp almost the way they started, before you applied the comp. Meanwhile the cymbals take on a whole different sonic dimension. They get darker, maybe a little less definition of hits, and less distinction between cymbals, but they blend together and are less harsh. Like many similar treatments, I like to apply this until its results are very noticeably attaining my goal, and then reduce the intensity of the treatment (i.e. raise the threshold a little, or lower the ratio a pinch). That's kind of how I keep myself from over-correcting mix problems.

[joninc]

cool - thanks guys.

[joninc]

You can get a huge tonal shift in your overheads/room mics with compression.

Comp-wise try putting a pretty low ratio and then setting it low enough that it's actually working much of the time. If you slow down the attack time, you will start to hear the snare and toms come back through the comp almost the way they started, before you applied the comp. Meanwhile the cymbals take on a whole different sonic dimension. They get darker, maybe a little less definition of hits, and less distinction between cymbals, but they blend together and are less harsh. Like many similar treatments, I like to apply this until its results are very noticeably attaining my goal, and then reduce the intensity of the treatment (i.e. raise the threshold a little, or lower the ratio a pinch). That's kind of how I keep myself from over-correcting mix problems.

what style comp or plug do you like for this type of application?