a bazillion tracks, and other thoughts...

[joninc]

this thread reminds me of the pedro the lion/bazan threads i have been reading.

the last pedro record and the new bazan both sound great and are good exercises in economical recording - most drums tracks are 1 overhead and 1 kick. 2 tracks!! they sound phat and awesome. bass and guitars and mostly 1 track mono recordings. no phasy BS - just good sounds.

combine that with creative and smart arranging and production of good songwriting and boom - great record.

i want to keep simplifying and simplifying what i do to really get at the core and strip away all the fuss. i am so sick of futzing around with eqs and crap - get it right at the source! commit! (i am ranting to myself btw)

[sad iron]

Jon, I haven't read this whole thread (but I will eventually) however, I think we're both drinking the same Beatles-laced tea. The remasters have been a revelation to me from a sound standpoint. I'm in love with sound in a way i haven't been in a while. And impressed with what they did with so little (you know what I mean). Innovation, intuition, an eye toward beauty and great things happened. A lesson we could all stand to learn over and over.

Can I get an Amen?

[Jon Nolan]

Can I get an Amen?

Amen!

[@?,*???&?]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

[Jon Nolan]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

*I* wouldn't pay that much for mixes, and gawd knows no frickin' indie band is paying that astronomical amount. Not without daddy's credit card anyway. That's major label money we're talking. and if they're willing to pay it, why wouldn't he say yes?

i dont know what you mean by "nope." what he says makes total frickin' sense to me. sometimes i keep the tone knobs in the same place on my amp, even when i'm about to try a new guitar, even when experience has shown me that I'll likely change 'em up after I hear it.

just because he starts somewhere, doesn't mean that's where he ends up.

intellect vs instinct. right on.

[joninc]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

ouch - strong accusational tone to this!! do you have any personal experience to back up this theory? do you think he's not deserved his reputation and therefore his rate? what's the rational for that? do you think his works sucks?

i know Michael Brauer charges in the neighbourhood of $5k a song - that generally equals a day of time. i don't think he does more than one song a day and i doubt that JJP does either. it's still huge bucks no matter how you slice it but obviously there are people/companies/artists that feel they are worthy of it or they would never work.

just because these guys are successful is no reason to think they are sell outs or that they run the same eventide delay presets on every vocalist or the same kick sample on every drum kit.

i watched the video too and i totally love his philosophy: Look at the big picture first - start to settle the elements into place - then fine tune as necessary. Rather than: tweaking the kick drum eq and compression in isolation and build everything around that 1 step at a time.

[@?,*???&?]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

ouch - strong accusational tone to this!! do you have any personal experience to back up this theory? do you think he's not deserved his reputation and therefore his rate? what's the rational for that? do you think his works sucks?

Yes, I've got a bit of experience here- or why would I post?

The same applies to the Tom Lord-Alge thing...similar 'Insta-mix' approach.

[joninc]

Yes, I've got a bit of experience here- or why would I post?

experience working with JJP?

if so - do you think he's not worth that?

why all the H8ing?

[Jon Nolan]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

ouch - strong accusational tone to this!! do you have any personal experience to back up this theory? do you think he's not deserved his reputation and therefore his rate? what's the rational for that? do you think his works sucks?

Yes, I've got a bit of experience here- or why would I post?

The same applies to the Tom Lord-Alge thing...similar 'Insta-mix' approach.

I wonder what their responses would be to the implication that their mixing/mix techniques are "insta"-anything.

does anybody know JJP or TLA? somebody get 'em to chime in on this stuff!

[Gentleman Jim]

If they have an "Insta-mix" approach that gets them $2500-$5000 a day, then why aren't there a thousand other people out there who the market thinks are just as good? One would think that if there was no talent involved then it would come down to investing in the gear, right?

Say it would cost $750,000 to recreate their gear and spaces. In terms of a commercial investment that isn't too high; one needs about twice that amount to become a Dunkin' Donuts franchisee. So why are there 6,400 Dunkin' Donuts in the US and only a few dozen top mixers?

I'll also point out that $2,500 a day is about what a good commercial contract lawyer charges in New Jersey. Not a top-of-the-line, known-in-the-corridors-of-power lawyer, mind you, just someone who knows what they're doing.

I think in terms of cost-effectiveness, there are probably few things that will positively affect sales more than having a good radio mix of a pop song. And that's coming from a guy who doesn't listen to radio.

[Jon Nolan]

also, whats the dollar amount at which someone flips from artist to hustler, and who decides what number that is? what's *that* job pay?

[Jay Reynolds]

This is funny. I'm re-reading the Mixerman diaries and just got to the part where he goes into the "insta-mix" thing.

Is being a $2.5/5K per mix engineer indicative of relying on pre-set effects chains, or is indicative of having a strong brand? Does having a strong brand automatically mean that the person associated with said brand mixes by rote? Once an engineer gets to that level, is it possible to deliver mixes quickly enough w/o using pre-set chains? If you were making that kind of money (2-4 mixes a week grosses $500k+ per year @2.5k per mix), how big would be the temptation to use by-rote techniques in order to guarantee the the same level of income?

All I'm saying is that it's a bit presumptuous to assume that everyone on that level is working with laziness as their basic motive.

[roscoenyc]

If you hire a guy for $2.5k to mix your song do you want him
to not use all the experience he's got?

Do you want him to start from scratch on your nickel and try every compressor he has on the vocal when he knows which one he wants to use?

You already fucked it up that's why the bonehead A&R guy sent you to Mr $2.5k

It's called a professional relationship. You paid the guy to mix your song.
Let him mix your song.

If you are lucky you can sit on the couch and learn a few things.

Merry Christmas

[@?,*???&?]

[url=http://www.gearslutz.com/board/video-va ... llect.html]

Nope. This is called- he gets paid $2500 a mix.

He essentially cross-patches sounds into pre-existing chains and has an 'insta-mix' that is close.

Two songs a day = $5000 for JJP

Three songs a day = $7500 for JJP

Ain't no 'instinct' about it, although that appears to be his rationalization for it.

ouch - strong accusational tone to this!! do you have any personal experience to back up this theory? do you think he's not deserved his reputation and therefore his rate? what's the rational for that? do you think his works sucks?

Yes, I've got a bit of experience here- or why would I post?

The same applies to the Tom Lord-Alge thing...similar 'Insta-mix' approach.

I wonder what their responses would be to the implication that their mixing/mix techniques are "insta"-anything.

does anybody know JJP or TLA? somebody get 'em to chime in on this stuff!

I've been in the control rooms with these big mix guys- not Brauer, but CLA, TLA and JJP. Actually, JJP invited me NOT to be in the room while he sold the band his mix so, as he said, "Not to have any unrelated influence on the band". This basically meant, so as to not have ANY competition in the room. The band asked me to come down because it was pre-big mastering crush era and JJP was doing his crush on his mix buss. The band asked to me come down to hear what was going on. The band was already bringing their mixes over to my place to listen on my system because everything they took away from the studio sounded distorted to them. The mixes were level maximized and distorted and the band HATED it. JJP was the pre-cursor to the loudness wars, so yeah, I think his mixes sound like ass, but that's just me and the band I was involved with.

TLA was a bit more normal to work with- although with one project, "Coil" from Toad the Wet Sprocket, both Gavin MacKillop and I agreed that he should practically, completely remix the entire album because he missed the boat terribly. Insta-mix insertion of tracks into all of his pre-set chains on the console down in Miami allowed him to get a balance and print the mixes. All of the detail of the songs was gone. Glen's best vocal performances are on that record and they are clear, but with only drums supporting. Suddenly the record sounded NOTHING like the band. Having been involved with that from the engineering side from the ground up, I knew what was there. As we meticulously every track (30 to 40+ per song) to a Sony 3348 (then, TLA's choice of master tape because he 'lost' time waiting for two machines to lock together) TLA was mortified when Gavin had to sit in the control room with him to do recalls and spend another 5 hours per mix to finish them. TLA was LOSING money. Hear that record and then listen to 'Dulcinea'. 'Dulcinea' sounds like the band, "Coil"? Well, it sounds more like that "Live" record TLA mixed- not like Toad, then or now.

Another particular instance of transformation and a definite "insert track here" came on a record by Far Too Jones that CLA mixed. When Gavin and I walked in to the control room at Image in Hollywood, neither of us (and Gavin had spent about 10 years longer than myself on an SSL) recognized what the fuck CLA was doing with the console. Zany routing- definitely submixing in sort of a Brauer fashion, but not intuitively necessary. Listen to that disc for yourself to hear the massive amount of 3 kHz CLA whacked in to that. All hurried, all bottom line driven. Two-dimensional and pinched.

Seriously, these guys are not gods. I certainly don't hold them on a pedestal, but I do respect where they have 're-directed' the industry. Gavin and I simply couldn't believe the accepted amount of distortion in the TLA mixes BEFORE mastering.

Nasty.

[mixerman]

This is funny. I'm re-reading the Mixerman diaries and just got to the part where he goes into the "insta-mix" thing.

It's an interesting question you pose. Just so I can get some sort of context in order to offer up my thoughts on this, could you quote the section in which I talk about an insta-mix?

Thanks,

Mixerman