Sorry for the long post! I'm designing a website for a guy who builds custom outboard gear, and we're going to do a trade for a piece of gear as payment. I have him a quote for the site, and told him I was looking for a good preamp or compressor. He gave me this list of things he could build for me for the price:
SSL-style buss compressor
2 channel API 312 preamp clone
2 channel SSL9000 console preamp clone
bus compressor based on this DIY one: http://www.diygallery.de/gallery/index.html (scroll through the thumbnails all the way to the right, the last one - 3u bus compressor, he said he could do this or fit it in 1u)
Problem is I've never worked with any of these units. I've heard good things about APIs and SSLs, so I don't feel cheated with these options. I pay a lot of attention to what folks around here say so I get tidbits here and there, but even after searching on here and throughout the internet I'm not finding too much as far as the sound qualities of each. After thorough searching here's a bit of what I've found:
api 312 - clear and punchy, a little dark, doesn't distort easily, good for drums, one person said not great for vocals, another said vocals were pretty good through it (though I have no idea what kind of music they were using it for, what kind of singer, etc.)
SSL9000 - not finding too much as far as sound qualities, just that Teldex Studioes rebuilt their control room with a 96-channel SSL 900 J console as the centerpiece.
SSL bus compressor - hard to find a lot of info but a few of the things i did find were: great for stereo bus, good for drums/kick and snare, good for piano and clean guitar
I'm mostly posting this to find out opinions of the sound qualities of these. I don't really want to say "which should I get" since that's such a variable answer. In case anyone feels like chiming in on that too here some info: My gear is on the low end, but I do well with it. I do months of research before buying anything so I know exactly what I'll be getting and that each piece I had will do something useful for me. I see so often when talking about cheap gear most folks say it's crap, and then a few folks will say "on a lot of things it's awful, but when I use it on ____it beats out ___". I'm a big believer in everything has it's place" Anyway, I use compression a lot on bass and vocals, sometimes on snare or kick, and occasionally drum bus. I don't have any outboard compression though, so if I'm using a lot of compression it eats up computer power after a while, so I always feel like having something outboard would be useful. At the same time, the only outboard preamps I have are a Studio Project VTB-1 and an Art MPA Gold. The VTB-1 sounds surprisingly great on certain sources. I just got the Art used and haven't used it a ton yet, but it gets pretty good reviews and I've been pretty happy with it for the bit I've used it. So an outboard compressor would be nice so I could hit some things lightly going in/rely a little less on plugins, but getting two channels of a really nice preamp would help step up the sound in general. I've thought about getting a two channel preamp from this guy, and getting an RNC. I know it gets mixed reviews and isn't going to be the same as an SSL, but if getting 2 channels of preamps is a much better idea then I could get the RNC. There's a guy locally who'll build me an LA4 clone too for $600. I've used an LA2A a heard a ton of recordings its used on a general love the sound, but I've only heard a bit of the LA4. But for pricing alone $600 seems like a good price. So I could get a 2-channel preamp from the guy I'm posting about, and then later get the LA4 as a compressor. BTW I'm recording a variety of "indie" stuff, from soft acoustic folky stuff with acoustic guitar, dulcimer, big roomy drum sound, to noisy stuff to indie pop to rock, something like that.
API 312 clone vs. SSL 9000 clone vs....HELP!
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Sean Sullivan
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Well, I don't think you'll find too many people who prefer SSL preamps over API...if he were building your a 9000 series channel strip with the EQ and compression that would be nice but as far as preamps go API are great/good on just about everything. I'll put it this way, if you can't get something to sound good using API preamps, the preamp ain't the problem 
SSL buss compressors can be heard on a lot of major records, they are popular on drum buss and the mix buss. I know a few people like them on acoustics guitars (or at least the Alan Smart C2 that's based of it).
SSL buss compressors can be heard on a lot of major records, they are popular on drum buss and the mix buss. I know a few people like them on acoustics guitars (or at least the Alan Smart C2 that's based of it).
Still waiting for a Luna reunion
On average, how many channels are you recording to simultaneously?
My initial reaction is to go for the 312 clone pres & get an RNC &/or the LA4 later. You might find yourself reaching for ITB compression less if your recorded material sounds "better"...or has a little more preamp character than what you have currently.
The flip side is that if you aren't using a bunch of channels on the way in then the buss compressor might give you some alternatives with your current pres as well as...well...buss compression. I use a C1 clone buss compressor that I like quite a bit. I mostly use it on drum buss, acoustic guitars, vocals & mix buss. I find it can give some nice punch & mellow highs in a pleasing way when used subtly. It can also help "glue" things together in a mix & can let vocals sit in the mix a little better too. I use one channel of it on the way in on some mono sources so it gets use past just being a buss or stereo comp. There are a few SSL style clones out there with varying sounds & uses...above is what I tend to like mine (TK Audio BC1) for.
I mostly do solo recordings of myself playing everything, occasionally I do work with bands, but I'm never running more than 8 channels simultaneously. So having a buss compressor that gets a lot more work than just on a buss is good for me. I do also have an outboard FET comp that maybe gets a little more work on the way in.
I do have a few nice pres, a pair of which are API 512c's...that I bought well before the buss compressor. I think I acquired them in a good order (for me) as I focused more on the sounds I was getting with mics, placement & how hard I pushed the pres. So again, I'd probably lean toward the 312 clones & save for the RNC/LA4. The RNC is a great first outboard compressor to get a feel for compression, sounds good, works well & the folks at FMR are great. I can't speak on a LA4 as I've never touched one.
Hope that helps with your decision!
My initial reaction is to go for the 312 clone pres & get an RNC &/or the LA4 later. You might find yourself reaching for ITB compression less if your recorded material sounds "better"...or has a little more preamp character than what you have currently.
The flip side is that if you aren't using a bunch of channels on the way in then the buss compressor might give you some alternatives with your current pres as well as...well...buss compression. I use a C1 clone buss compressor that I like quite a bit. I mostly use it on drum buss, acoustic guitars, vocals & mix buss. I find it can give some nice punch & mellow highs in a pleasing way when used subtly. It can also help "glue" things together in a mix & can let vocals sit in the mix a little better too. I use one channel of it on the way in on some mono sources so it gets use past just being a buss or stereo comp. There are a few SSL style clones out there with varying sounds & uses...above is what I tend to like mine (TK Audio BC1) for.
I mostly do solo recordings of myself playing everything, occasionally I do work with bands, but I'm never running more than 8 channels simultaneously. So having a buss compressor that gets a lot more work than just on a buss is good for me. I do also have an outboard FET comp that maybe gets a little more work on the way in.
I do have a few nice pres, a pair of which are API 512c's...that I bought well before the buss compressor. I think I acquired them in a good order (for me) as I focused more on the sounds I was getting with mics, placement & how hard I pushed the pres. So again, I'd probably lean toward the 312 clones & save for the RNC/LA4. The RNC is a great first outboard compressor to get a feel for compression, sounds good, works well & the folks at FMR are great. I can't speak on a LA4 as I've never touched one.
Hope that helps with your decision!
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Kevin S
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Stefan which I think that's his site makes good gear, so either way your set.
The API style preamp is good for Rock, but don't let stop you from using it on other things. The Buss compressor is a excellent choice and is probably worth a little more since it's a stereo compressor. You will not be unhappy with the quality and choice. You could see if he could build them both and let you chose. If that happens be prepared as you will probably owe him for the other item as well..
The API style preamp is good for Rock, but don't let stop you from using it on other things. The Buss compressor is a excellent choice and is probably worth a little more since it's a stereo compressor. You will not be unhappy with the quality and choice. You could see if he could build them both and let you chose. If that happens be prepared as you will probably owe him for the other item as well..
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jgimbel
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Thanks for the responses, great info.
sir hills, I'm mostly recording myself on everything too, so I'm rarely running too many channels at once - usually 4 or 5 at the most if I'm doing something with a lot of drum room sound (usually I'm set with 3). Yeah most likely the majority of outboard compression I'd be using would be for single channels but it'd be nice to have the option of using it as a bus, but with the way I've been working it's much more likely I'd use it more often for single sources.
Kevin S, I should have mentioned that that isn't this guy's website, I think he was just using it as an example. Sorry about that! Yeah the gear on that site looks so solid. As much as straight forward photos of gear is appreciated for descriptive purposes, it's nice to see such quality put into gear porn photos. I almost fell over when he sent me that link. Anyway, I think I could get him to build both and let me choose, for a few reasons. First, I definitely don't have the money to get the other piece if he builds it (his builds are pretty expensive, I'm actually getting the much better end of the deal here!). Also he's in Virginia, I'm in PA, so he probably wouldn't be cool with shipping me both units and hoping I send one back! Also this guy mostly builds one-off units, not so much main products that he builds a bunch of, so to have him build both might bleed his own wallet a bit, which is not what I want to do!
So yeah at this point I think I'm leaning towards the APIs. 2 channels of a great preamp sounds like a good deal to me. Then I'll do the RNC/LA4 as soon as I can. I guess I really need to try to find info about how the LA4 is. The guy who builds them said himself that the RNC is the best compressor for the money hands down, so hell maybe I'll get both. But the LA4 sounds nice even just for the fact that it's stereo, so it's not like having to choose between the stereo RNC or a mono LA4. I guess if the LA4 is really an awesome piece of gear then I'll go that way. I might have to make another post just to see what people's feelings about the LA4 are.
I'd still love any more thoughts on this situation, but the 312s seem like the way to go right now. Thanks folks!
I've heard that before. That's a good sign!minorleagues wrote:I'll put it this way, if you can't get something to sound good using API preamps, the preamp ain't the problem
sir hills, I'm mostly recording myself on everything too, so I'm rarely running too many channels at once - usually 4 or 5 at the most if I'm doing something with a lot of drum room sound (usually I'm set with 3). Yeah most likely the majority of outboard compression I'd be using would be for single channels but it'd be nice to have the option of using it as a bus, but with the way I've been working it's much more likely I'd use it more often for single sources.
That's how I'm feeling. I use compression mostly for dynamic reasons, not as much for character (though I'm sure that's because I'm not using the best compression), but I definitely feel like having tracks that are really more solid in the first place will make me rely less on compression.sir hills wrote:My initial reaction is to go for the 312 clone pres & get an RNC &/or the LA4 later. You might find yourself reaching for ITB compression less if your recorded material sounds "better"...or has a little more preamp character than what you have currently.
Kevin S, I should have mentioned that that isn't this guy's website, I think he was just using it as an example. Sorry about that! Yeah the gear on that site looks so solid. As much as straight forward photos of gear is appreciated for descriptive purposes, it's nice to see such quality put into gear porn photos. I almost fell over when he sent me that link. Anyway, I think I could get him to build both and let me choose, for a few reasons. First, I definitely don't have the money to get the other piece if he builds it (his builds are pretty expensive, I'm actually getting the much better end of the deal here!). Also he's in Virginia, I'm in PA, so he probably wouldn't be cool with shipping me both units and hoping I send one back! Also this guy mostly builds one-off units, not so much main products that he builds a bunch of, so to have him build both might bleed his own wallet a bit, which is not what I want to do!
So yeah at this point I think I'm leaning towards the APIs. 2 channels of a great preamp sounds like a good deal to me. Then I'll do the RNC/LA4 as soon as I can. I guess I really need to try to find info about how the LA4 is. The guy who builds them said himself that the RNC is the best compressor for the money hands down, so hell maybe I'll get both. But the LA4 sounds nice even just for the fact that it's stereo, so it's not like having to choose between the stereo RNC or a mono LA4. I guess if the LA4 is really an awesome piece of gear then I'll go that way. I might have to make another post just to see what people's feelings about the LA4 are.
I'd still love any more thoughts on this situation, but the 312s seem like the way to go right now. Thanks folks!
Here's another long one for you jgimbel...
After reading your response I'm still leaning hard toward the API clones...more so knowing you're a drummer too. You'll be happy with them & use them on any session. They are great for "rock" style stuff but I love mine on chill, non-rocking acoustic guitars too...give's them a bit more "forwardness" in my mixes & can help give a little definition if the mixes are dense. Bass is great through them as well...miked or DI'd. & don't let anyone scare you off about using them for vocals.
If you do go for them I'd recommend getting some attenuators for the output. I have a set of -12's & a set of -18's that I'll throw on depending on the source. They'll allow you to drive the gain on the pre more & get some different tones out of them. The 512c's have the built-in pad just after the input, before the gain stage. So when trying to drive them a little it can be hard to control the output from peaking when it hits the DA converter. I have seen some diy kits for API clones that have the built-in pads in line after the gain stage so you might ask your friend if that's the case. I've bought attenuators from several different places but have really liked dealing with & the products made by Jon O'Neil from Naiant:
http://naiant.com/studiostore/microphones.html
The pads are at the bottom of the list. I also just saw that he is discontinuing some of his mics so if you don't have any omni's & are interested he makes great sounding, reliable & affordable pieces.
Try a search here on the LA4 & quite a bit of info & opinions turn up & seems like folks around here like them quite a bit.
After reading your response I'm still leaning hard toward the API clones...more so knowing you're a drummer too. You'll be happy with them & use them on any session. They are great for "rock" style stuff but I love mine on chill, non-rocking acoustic guitars too...give's them a bit more "forwardness" in my mixes & can help give a little definition if the mixes are dense. Bass is great through them as well...miked or DI'd. & don't let anyone scare you off about using them for vocals.
If you do go for them I'd recommend getting some attenuators for the output. I have a set of -12's & a set of -18's that I'll throw on depending on the source. They'll allow you to drive the gain on the pre more & get some different tones out of them. The 512c's have the built-in pad just after the input, before the gain stage. So when trying to drive them a little it can be hard to control the output from peaking when it hits the DA converter. I have seen some diy kits for API clones that have the built-in pads in line after the gain stage so you might ask your friend if that's the case. I've bought attenuators from several different places but have really liked dealing with & the products made by Jon O'Neil from Naiant:
http://naiant.com/studiostore/microphones.html
The pads are at the bottom of the list. I also just saw that he is discontinuing some of his mics so if you don't have any omni's & are interested he makes great sounding, reliable & affordable pieces.
Try a search here on the LA4 & quite a bit of info & opinions turn up & seems like folks around here like them quite a bit.
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calaverasgrandes
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SSL's are more known as mix desks than tracking desks. The standard formula seems to be track it through Neve or API preamps then mix it on an SSL.
That and as far as I know SSL preamps are monolithic opamp based designs right? Iwould almost always go for iron over IC's. There can be bad transformer based pres and great souding IC based pres. ButI still think the great transformer pre beats the great IC pre.
We all scream for IC cream.
I do believe I have seen a couple of API clones (and I think the A2D) that have coil taps on the output transformer to address the hot ouput issue. maybe mention this to your builder friend?
Good luck, barter is awesome.
That and as far as I know SSL preamps are monolithic opamp based designs right? Iwould almost always go for iron over IC's. There can be bad transformer based pres and great souding IC based pres. ButI still think the great transformer pre beats the great IC pre.
We all scream for IC cream.
I do believe I have seen a couple of API clones (and I think the A2D) that have coil taps on the output transformer to address the hot ouput issue. maybe mention this to your builder friend?
Good luck, barter is awesome.
??????? wrote: "everything sounds best right before it blows up."
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jgimbel
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Resurrecting this thread for an update. I did go ahead with the dual API 312 clone, and it should be ready soon. Everything's done with it, he's just waiting for the chassis to arrive. He sent me a picture of the faceplace and insides -
He did everything, I just designed the faceplate. I tried to make it 512/3124 looking, I think it came out really well. I'll post again once it's here and I'll post some sound clips if that'd be of interest.
He did everything, I just designed the faceplate. I tried to make it 512/3124 looking, I think it came out really well. I'll post again once it's here and I'll post some sound clips if that'd be of interest.
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jgimbel
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Well I'm not building it, the guy is building me one as a trade for a website, so I can only really say what he told me. He asked how much I'd normally charge for a simple website like he needed. My quote was $350-$450. He said he could build:thegeek wrote:that is so sweet... what would that guy set someone like me back?
-an SSL style buss compressor
-a 2 channel API 312 preamp clone
-a 2 channel SSL9000 console preamp clone
He had also sent me in another message some of his normal prices for those and other pieces:
2 channel clone of the preamps in the SSL9000 console
SSL mix buss compressor clone
LA2A clone:
1176 clone:
2 channel five fish sc1 transformerless preamp:
2 channel JLM Baby Animal discrete class A transformer based preamps:
4 channel JLM Baby Animal discrete class A transformer based preamps:
So it seems like he's got a pretty big range, from lowish budget to closer to prices for some cushier gear.
What I'm dying for now is a nice compressor, if anyone builds them and would want any graphics/photo work for trade
EDIT I took out the prices as per his request, as the prices of his component and the actual components he uses changes, so I don't want to have him locked into a price that's not really doable. But still those are some pieces he can build, and like I said he's a very personable guy and I'm sure everything could be worked out. If others wouldn't mind taking the price out of their posts as well that would be much appreciated, I don't want to get him in any hot water.
Last edited by jgimbel on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
very nice...
is this his website?
http://www.diygallery.de/gallery/index.html
If not, how would I get a hold of him to order something... I think I'd like the SSL.
is this his website?
http://www.diygallery.de/gallery/index.html
If not, how would I get a hold of him to order something... I think I'd like the SSL.
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jgimbel
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No, that's not his website. I'm surprised to see that, he sent that site to me to show me one of the pieces on there as an example of something he could do. He's been gathering content for the past few weeks so the website isn't done yet. Right now he's just got his myspace, which is http://www.myspace.com/regularjohnrecordingcompany. He's been very nice to deal with. I honestly haven't heard much of his stuff, but he's sent me images for the compressor page and he's built at least 5-10 SSL compressors, so I'd say going to him for something SSL style wouldn't be out of his capabilities!
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Snarl 12/8
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