This has probably come up before on this board but it was hard to search...
Twice now this has happened to me and I'd hate for it to happen a third. The client has no input whatsoever on the mixes...then after the thing is finished I hear through the grapevine that they didn't like the end product. wtf?
This time the client is a typical loud rock act...2 guitars, lead singer, bassist who can't play, and a drummer using baseball bats. I offered to engineer and mix for free if they were willing to let me help them out with some production, which they did, so I found myself with a lot of work to do and unfortunately a lot of editing to do because they couldn't play in time and because they said they wanted a glossy, produced, tight rocking record...
but they stopped calling me back after I gave them the first round of mixes, apparently because they didn't like them and they don't want to hurt my feelings.
Is this my fault for offering free shit?
Is it their fault for being too timid or for not knowing the process?
We all talked for a long time about why this was free and what they wanted out of the record, so I did my best, and honestly I think its my best work to date! I want to release it!
Ever happen to you?
client dislikes mixes...but wont say anything
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FlowersForHuman
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CurtZHP
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It cost them nothing, so it was worth nothing.
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Gentleman Jim
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Yes, I've had reasonably analogous situations. Here are a few crackpot theories:
The band might not have been in 100% agreement as to working with you. One or more members begrudgingly agreed because it was free, and since it doesn't sound exactly like Def Leppard's "Pyromania" they think you're incompetent. The rest of the band is left to choose between your feelings and a bandmate. You lose.
The entire band might have had unreasonable expectations of what you could do.
The entire band might have had unreasonable expectations of what THEY could do.
Without mastering, the extra layer of sheen that they've become accustomed to in the music they listen to isn't there. Therefore, the final mixes seem limp.
While it's the best job you've ever done, it just might not be all that great when compared to what they listen to regularly.
You might not actually understand what they were going for. Perhaps they said something they didn't really mean in preproduction.
They just didn't click with you. (You do slag off the bass player and the drummer in your post, and you describe the band as "a typical loud rock act." Even when it's accurate, most people don't like to be called "typical.")
At the end of the day, you got the experience you wanted. If they're not happy, then there's very little you can do. You do still have the tracks to work with and remix for practice. Don't do something dumb to annoy them, like post the tracks on your website/myspace, or give them out as a demo of your work.
The band might not have been in 100% agreement as to working with you. One or more members begrudgingly agreed because it was free, and since it doesn't sound exactly like Def Leppard's "Pyromania" they think you're incompetent. The rest of the band is left to choose between your feelings and a bandmate. You lose.
The entire band might have had unreasonable expectations of what you could do.
The entire band might have had unreasonable expectations of what THEY could do.
Without mastering, the extra layer of sheen that they've become accustomed to in the music they listen to isn't there. Therefore, the final mixes seem limp.
While it's the best job you've ever done, it just might not be all that great when compared to what they listen to regularly.
You might not actually understand what they were going for. Perhaps they said something they didn't really mean in preproduction.
They just didn't click with you. (You do slag off the bass player and the drummer in your post, and you describe the band as "a typical loud rock act." Even when it's accurate, most people don't like to be called "typical.")
At the end of the day, you got the experience you wanted. If they're not happy, then there's very little you can do. You do still have the tracks to work with and remix for practice. Don't do something dumb to annoy them, like post the tracks on your website/myspace, or give them out as a demo of your work.
Free is tough man - usually never a good situation. If you had done it as a normal job, you would have been at least paid for your work. Also, the band would have a vested interest in working with you to get a complete mixed album.
It could also be that the mixes are great but really not what the band are looking for. You know, a band may not like Steve Albini's sound but would work with him if he offered his services for free, just to see what they can come up with. They may have amazing sounding 'Albini' mixes in their hands, but want a nice polished sound so they go somewhere else to remix or retrack. So don't take it too personally.
But at this point there really isn't anything you can do. If you think it's some of your best work, keep it in your portfolio and chalk it up to a learning experience.
It could also be that the mixes are great but really not what the band are looking for. You know, a band may not like Steve Albini's sound but would work with him if he offered his services for free, just to see what they can come up with. They may have amazing sounding 'Albini' mixes in their hands, but want a nice polished sound so they go somewhere else to remix or retrack. So don't take it too personally.
But at this point there really isn't anything you can do. If you think it's some of your best work, keep it in your portfolio and chalk it up to a learning experience.
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Guy: Well, I am the drummer.
Guy: Well, I am the drummer.
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chris harris
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I'd also suggest that young people don't like to have their BAND referred to as an "act"... This could possibly suggest a generation gap? Maybe the OP really didn't "get" what they were going for?Gentleman Jim wrote:They just didn't click with you. (You do slag off the bass player and the drummer in your post, and you describe the band as "a typical loud rock act." Even when it's accurate, most people don't like to be called "typical.")
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cgarges
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You can't win with free stuff.
In this situation, they didn't want o take advantage of you, but in another, they might totally take advantage of you and you'll start a thread about how much work they want you to do for nothing.
If you don't put some kind of value on your work, it's really hard to navigate these situations.
As far as them not releasing it, welcome to the world of recording. Man, I've had THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of dollars spent on stuff that I thought turned out great that the world will never hear for one reason or another. If you want to be proud of what you do, make your own records and let those speak for themselves. Then you only have your self to blame for whatever you don't like. Otherwise, there are absolutely no guarantees.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
In this situation, they didn't want o take advantage of you, but in another, they might totally take advantage of you and you'll start a thread about how much work they want you to do for nothing.
If you don't put some kind of value on your work, it's really hard to navigate these situations.
As far as them not releasing it, welcome to the world of recording. Man, I've had THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of dollars spent on stuff that I thought turned out great that the world will never hear for one reason or another. If you want to be proud of what you do, make your own records and let those speak for themselves. Then you only have your self to blame for whatever you don't like. Otherwise, there are absolutely no guarantees.
Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
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FlowersForHuman
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Well chaps, thats a lot of insight for sure. Most everything mentioned has already gone through my head a time or two except for this first quote:
This must happen a lot in commercial studios, right?
You're right, I guess I did dig on them unnecessarily, but what I stated is 100% factual. I think I was trying to illustrate that I was working with amateurs rather than seasoned pros while also trying to relate to the board. Its easy to take the cheap shot I guess. More importantly however, unless they were all four blowing smoke on separate occasions, we all got along great and they each personally told me that I was really easy to work with. Seemed like a really positive experience the whole time. Oh well.They just didn't click with you. (You do slag off the bass player and the drummer in your post, and you describe the band as "a typical loud rock act." Even when it's accurate, most people don't like to be called "typical.")
This is what most of my recording geek friends seem to think so I'm starting to believe it too.Maybe the band is confused on what they actually sound like?
You might not actually understand what they were going for. Perhaps they said something they didn't really mean in preproduction.
This must happen a lot in commercial studios, right?
Starting to learn that...there are absolutely no guarantees
hilarious! i picked up the habit of calling rock bands acts when i was in music school. Yo-Yo Ma or Gene Simmons...which ones the act? Both the band and I are in our mid 20s haha.young people don't like to have their BAND referred to as an "act"...
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RodC
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Re: client dislikes mixes...but wont say anything
I have found that with the limited time and experiece that myself and many others in our zone of the biz, its pretty hard to create a "glossy, produced, tight rocking record" if the band cant even play in time.FlowersForHuman wrote:so I found myself with a lot of work to do and unfortunately a lot of editing to do because they couldn't play in time and because they said they wanted a glossy, produced, tight rocking record...
I have seen story after story of band X goes to studio Y and is not happy. Watch band X perform and you soon discover they are not in pratice, cant play in time and can't even tell you when their guitar is out of tune.
Gettin that last 2% of polish on a record demands that most of this must be there before you can do your job. And lots o ppl can tell you when that last 2% is missing.
'Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones'
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inverseroom
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Agreed, it's tough for free stuff.
A lesson I learned a long time ago: be careful about over-promising. "I can make you guys sound like $HOT_NEW_BAND_ON_RADIO; so you should let me do it for free."
As you say, this is a less-than-stellar band so it's probably not gonna sound like that no matter how good your chops are.
If you build up the band's expectations, they are often disappointed in the results. You have to keep it real, esp. on freebie sessions.
A lesson I learned a long time ago: be careful about over-promising. "I can make you guys sound like $HOT_NEW_BAND_ON_RADIO; so you should let me do it for free."
As you say, this is a less-than-stellar band so it's probably not gonna sound like that no matter how good your chops are.
If you build up the band's expectations, they are often disappointed in the results. You have to keep it real, esp. on freebie sessions.
Lots of good info/comments above from everyone & I agree with all of them!
My 2 cents:
With younger bands, it's really hard these days, as there are so many things that are "disconnects" and there's no substitute for rehearsal, lyrical tone/direction and competent playing!
I often say: "You can't microwave people." IF their skill level is that of beginner, yet they want to sound as professionals, you're screwed! It takes years of daily practice to 'master' any instrument. Like learning to fluently speak any foreign language & be perceived by the 'natives' as a native. That's what masters do.
Also the idea that 'the engineer/recordist' makes the record sound the way it does. Ridiculous! It's the band that performs the well crafted arrangement, with the slick rhythms, the hooky melody & the singer with the 'clever' lyrics who performs in time & in tune. Anything less will NEVER sound like a 'tight polished record.' It's turd polishing time!
Make me sound like [insert musician/band here] That's like telling a photographer to make you look like [Brad Pitt] or your poorly dressed/styled band to look like [The Killers] - as Zappa said, "You are what you is." Cronkite sounds like Cronkite on any mic.
I've encountered bands myself that saw/heard too many stories about Martin/Spector/Timbaland/Dre who think the engineer actually 'makes' their songs/record/sound. And that a post tracking 'run off' mix on DAY 1 to "hear what you've got so far" is supposed to sound like a mastered record. This is impossible and they are clueless. Unfortunately, it's YOUR problem.
Life is too short to not produce the best work you can while you're "above ground."
I tell young bands to set up a jambox OR laptop & play their originals for us to 'listen to' (pre-production) This helps them with big problems that surface at live gigs & in the studio, such as:
1. learning how to balance themselves
2. which parts are stepping on each other & how to not "play busy" behind vocals
3. when your playing too many cymbals & hitting them too hard
4. have the progression 'wrong' between bass/guitars/keys
5. have background or lead vocals that are not just "out of tune" but "out of key"
6. 'too high' of a melody for the singer, most men can't sing 'full voice' above G 392hz
7. are trying to record an 'extended live arrangement' as a pop song (2 guitar solos?)
8. a plethora of other songwriting & performance problems
I've lost a few bands by demanding this "humbling" pre-requisite from them, but I think that's for the best! It is a real "poser" eradicator. They can hear how 'great' or 'atrocious' they actually are.
This is why a dance studio's walls are covered in mirrors, there's nothing better than 'self realization.'
I like the analogy of a radio play: Each band member has a speaking part. How cohesive can it ever be if 2 of the 4 characters in the 'radio drama' don't know their lines (due to lack of memorization/arrangement/practice/skill etc.) You think editing can fix that? Correct improperly 'emoted' lines etc?
Also:
If a comic tells a joke poorly, do you think that adding EQ, compression, verb & delay will make it funny? You're going to 'edit in' the proper 'beats' to make the setup & punchline of the joke work?
Another great one is:
Because everyone's listened to music, everyone has an opinion & they think they can mix their record better. It's like saying: I love eating gourmet food, so therefore I'm a chef -- I know how it's 'supposed' to taste. I'm not implying in any way that you should not do your best to help realize an artist's vision, however, sometimes it is a 'pipe dream.'
A final tangent:
If you've ever done a paying hip hop session (like here in Toledo) you'll find out that many hip hop groups have never rehearsed, ever! (as a group that is) They treat the studio as a rehearsal space & wonder why in 2 hours they don't sound like a Lil Wayne record with the beat they made in Fruity Loops? Fortunately, it's easier to make them sound like Gucci Mane (have you checked out that wack stuff? production? wtf? )
A great book to give to singers is The Complete Vocal Workout by Roger Kain. It covers over 25 short essay answers to common singing problems in addition to 2 CDs to practice with. I have seen it 'work miracles' and costs less than a single vocal lesson.
http://amzn.com/1844920038
Younger musicians have always thought they're "so sweet" when really they are "so green" - that's always been true. But with fewer 'role models' on the band scene (at least here in NW Ohio) there is less mentoring going on, and the 'live band' club scene is dying - fewer good bands & soundmen in clubs with fewer patrons.
As the other posters noted about 'freebies' it is true:
Time is money and "cheap, fast, good - pick any two" the trademan's job quote mantra is your friend.
Well, now I'm ranting!
Good luck FLOWERS on your future recording endeavours!
Best
W
My 2 cents:
With younger bands, it's really hard these days, as there are so many things that are "disconnects" and there's no substitute for rehearsal, lyrical tone/direction and competent playing!
I often say: "You can't microwave people." IF their skill level is that of beginner, yet they want to sound as professionals, you're screwed! It takes years of daily practice to 'master' any instrument. Like learning to fluently speak any foreign language & be perceived by the 'natives' as a native. That's what masters do.
Also the idea that 'the engineer/recordist' makes the record sound the way it does. Ridiculous! It's the band that performs the well crafted arrangement, with the slick rhythms, the hooky melody & the singer with the 'clever' lyrics who performs in time & in tune. Anything less will NEVER sound like a 'tight polished record.' It's turd polishing time!
Make me sound like [insert musician/band here] That's like telling a photographer to make you look like [Brad Pitt] or your poorly dressed/styled band to look like [The Killers] - as Zappa said, "You are what you is." Cronkite sounds like Cronkite on any mic.
I've encountered bands myself that saw/heard too many stories about Martin/Spector/Timbaland/Dre who think the engineer actually 'makes' their songs/record/sound. And that a post tracking 'run off' mix on DAY 1 to "hear what you've got so far" is supposed to sound like a mastered record. This is impossible and they are clueless. Unfortunately, it's YOUR problem.
Life is too short to not produce the best work you can while you're "above ground."
I tell young bands to set up a jambox OR laptop & play their originals for us to 'listen to' (pre-production) This helps them with big problems that surface at live gigs & in the studio, such as:
1. learning how to balance themselves
2. which parts are stepping on each other & how to not "play busy" behind vocals
3. when your playing too many cymbals & hitting them too hard
4. have the progression 'wrong' between bass/guitars/keys
5. have background or lead vocals that are not just "out of tune" but "out of key"
6. 'too high' of a melody for the singer, most men can't sing 'full voice' above G 392hz
7. are trying to record an 'extended live arrangement' as a pop song (2 guitar solos?)
8. a plethora of other songwriting & performance problems
I've lost a few bands by demanding this "humbling" pre-requisite from them, but I think that's for the best! It is a real "poser" eradicator. They can hear how 'great' or 'atrocious' they actually are.
This is why a dance studio's walls are covered in mirrors, there's nothing better than 'self realization.'
I like the analogy of a radio play: Each band member has a speaking part. How cohesive can it ever be if 2 of the 4 characters in the 'radio drama' don't know their lines (due to lack of memorization/arrangement/practice/skill etc.) You think editing can fix that? Correct improperly 'emoted' lines etc?
Also:
If a comic tells a joke poorly, do you think that adding EQ, compression, verb & delay will make it funny? You're going to 'edit in' the proper 'beats' to make the setup & punchline of the joke work?
Another great one is:
Because everyone's listened to music, everyone has an opinion & they think they can mix their record better. It's like saying: I love eating gourmet food, so therefore I'm a chef -- I know how it's 'supposed' to taste. I'm not implying in any way that you should not do your best to help realize an artist's vision, however, sometimes it is a 'pipe dream.'
A final tangent:
If you've ever done a paying hip hop session (like here in Toledo) you'll find out that many hip hop groups have never rehearsed, ever! (as a group that is) They treat the studio as a rehearsal space & wonder why in 2 hours they don't sound like a Lil Wayne record with the beat they made in Fruity Loops? Fortunately, it's easier to make them sound like Gucci Mane (have you checked out that wack stuff? production? wtf? )
A great book to give to singers is The Complete Vocal Workout by Roger Kain. It covers over 25 short essay answers to common singing problems in addition to 2 CDs to practice with. I have seen it 'work miracles' and costs less than a single vocal lesson.
http://amzn.com/1844920038
Younger musicians have always thought they're "so sweet" when really they are "so green" - that's always been true. But with fewer 'role models' on the band scene (at least here in NW Ohio) there is less mentoring going on, and the 'live band' club scene is dying - fewer good bands & soundmen in clubs with fewer patrons.
As the other posters noted about 'freebies' it is true:
Time is money and "cheap, fast, good - pick any two" the trademan's job quote mantra is your friend.
Well, now I'm ranting!
Good luck FLOWERS on your future recording endeavours!
Best
W
Last edited by blackmac on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CurtZHP
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blackmac wrote:
That dog will hunt!
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Re: client dislikes mixes...but wont say anything
free = no respectFlowersForHuman wrote:I offered to engineer and mix for free if they were willing to let me help them out with some production, which they did, so I found myself with a lot of work to do and unfortunately a lot of editing to do because they couldn't play in time and because they said they wanted a glossy, produced, tight rocking record...
NEVER work for free.
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Brian
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If you HAVE TO work for free,
tell them that it's definitely going to suck hard, unless it doesn't, and that if it doesn't, it isn't free anymore and they will HAVE TO pay for it to get the masters.
Works for both of you.
If it sucks, no one will hear it and if it doesn't, you get payed or no one hears it, plus you have an up front discussion with the band.
Now, if you want to know how to "get" the band, just let them come in and be whatever they are that you definitely don't like and instead of not liking it, try it.
If they do stuff that's just too weird, you shouldn't be working with them.
tell them that it's definitely going to suck hard, unless it doesn't, and that if it doesn't, it isn't free anymore and they will HAVE TO pay for it to get the masters.
Works for both of you.
If it sucks, no one will hear it and if it doesn't, you get payed or no one hears it, plus you have an up front discussion with the band.
Now, if you want to know how to "get" the band, just let them come in and be whatever they are that you definitely don't like and instead of not liking it, try it.
If they do stuff that's just too weird, you shouldn't be working with them.
Harumph!
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