Why is it so hard to build a cheap pre with fast response?

[Ryan Silva]

I have always loved doing a million overdubs on things like Vocals, and percussion, but for reasons unclear to me as a teenage 4-tracker I could never get a decent close mic sound from shakers, hand claps, hand snaps, and tambourine. Eventually I realized that all I needed to do was pull the mic back a couple of feet, and it cleared up. Although I never knew why.

After much reading and asking questions from those in the know, I learned some time ago that it had to do with transient response; obvious right? Even after learning this I was still in the same boat, I couldn?t get an undistorted shaker, clap, ect, sound (when miced close).

So I then turned to my gear and said ?What the hell is wrong with you!?!? My gear then responded ?We are just to slow?.

So I decided to buy some API pre?s, and there it was, a complete undistorted finger snap right on the grill.

So then came my next question, which I will pass on to you.

Why the hell is so hard to build a cheap pre with fast response?

Discuss among yourselves.

[snatchman]

One could probably build a "cheap" fast pre as an one off if he/she, has the skills/tools..The commercial low end Manufactures/Designers has basically the botton line in mind..Profit..!.. Build as cheap as possible just as long as it pass audio and works.!.. ..YMMV )

[calaverasgrandes]

Well you have to keep in mind that for any company to stay in business building pres they must make at least a 2 to 1 profit on their products. Some would say 3 to 1 or 4 to 1.
There are some kinds of business that you can make up the profit in volume (no loudness, number of units shipped!). But pro audio, even of the project studio variety is not that big of a business.
So each $600 pre you buy probably cost about $150 to build and is sold for $300 or so to the retailer.
Then there is the markup of the retailer to $600.
Of course it isnt as simple as that. But in general thats capitalism 101.
Maybe Jim Williams will chime in with some $10 OPAMP based mic pre that has DC to light bandwidth and a slew rate of 1000volts a u-sec.
Maybe one of the TI proof of concept deals?

[Jay Reynolds]

I think this is the cheapest fast pre you can get:
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/fmraudrnreal.html

I promise you there isn't a 100% profit margin in this baby. The packaging is plain cardboard. And there's very little marketing involved with this product, relative to other offerings at the same price point.

[GetHimEatHim]

Not exactly on-topic but.... in my earliest recording days, "move the f*** mic back" was, like, the biggest revelation ever. "Why does this tambourine sound bad when it's 2 inches away from the mic??!?"

[KennyLusk]

Not exactly on-topic but.... in my earliest recording days, "move the f*** mic back" was, like, the biggest revelation ever. "Why does this tambourine sound bad when it's 2 inches away from the mic??!?"

+1 to this.

I also hear where the OP's coming from. When I got my ZED14 and plugged in a few mics I thought "well crap, these pre's are FAST AND SOLID. Why aren't other manufacturers doing this?" It sounded like I had upgraded my whole mic locker and Geez, I only paid $329 for the board and got 6 killer pre's with mondo cool EQ and 14 channels altogether. Each channel strip has a vertically mounted PC board all connected with a ribbon cable. I think it's going to be hard to beat the ZED boards for basic function and sound and the Yamaha N series for advanced features and sound. Both just killing the competition with quality build, sound, and price. Just my opinion.

[farview]

It's my understanding that a fast preamp needs a really good power supply. That is the expensive bit.

[amorris]

you can have cheap, fast, and good. just not in the same pre. you know the API. fast and good. not cheap. its like asking why, after driving a ferrari , you cant buy a cheap car to compete. if you'd never driven the ferrari, you might be happy with cheap. not after you drove the ferrari. there is a premium on good things. and not only to rip you off, but it costs more if you are going to be picky about the result. many very expensive devices dont have expensive parts. but they are very specifically chosen parts with many of the parts they get rejected by in house specs. neve rejected 75% of the transformers they got from carnhill because neve needed a certain performance. people who buy "any old" carnhill are not getting a neve one.

[lacquer_monkey]

sounds more like a headroom issue than transient response. The risetime doesn't change when you move the mic back but the amplitude at the mic does.

[hank alrich]

sounds more like a headroom issue than transient response. The risetime doesn't change when you move the mic back but the amplitude at the mic does.

Proximity effect... mud...

Pull back and it helps reduce that effect and more clairity arises from the muck.

[jgimbel]

sounds more like a headroom issue than transient response. The risetime doesn't change when you move the mic back but the amplitude at the mic does.

Proximity effect... mud...

Pull back and it helps reduce that effect and more clairity arises from the muck.

True..but the proximity effect mud is an issue with the mic, not the preamp. It's an increase in bass response due do being close to the capsule. When you back up from the mic it's not that the clarity comes from the preamp reacting differently, it's from being far enough away from the mic to avoid the proximity effect. Whether you're 2 inches from the mic or 5 feet from the mic, a fast preamp is fast and a slow preamp is slow. I agree that it seems like more of a headroom issue than transient response. If a shaker sounds like ass up close my first thought is that it's starting to distort a bit, which is definitely a possibility with a shaker close-miced.

As far as it sounding better with the API, not having the same issue, I'd assume it's that the API has higher headroom than the other pre's, so it's not distorting when close-miced. Plus since distortion is compression, if your shaker's distorting when close-miced then it might sound compressed, which could be perceived as the pre being too slow. Then you change to the API with higher headroom, so it's not distorting/compressing, so there's the clarity and "faster" sound you're expecting.

Plus hey, APIs are awesome.

[calaverasgrandes]

Me I like my shaker compressed and distorted.

[Jim Williams]

Got $50?
www.audioupgrades.com/products/products_pip.htm

That one is 3000 volts per microsecond slew rate. It outputs over 100 ma current and has a -129.6 EIN, unweighted.

It fits a standard SSM2017/SSM2019/INA217/that1510 8 pin dip mic preamp chips.

Compare to the API with a 2 volt slew rate, this is 1500 times faster than that. Transients? No problems here.

[drumsound]

It's my understanding that a fast preamp needs a really good power supply. That is the expensive bit.

I know at least one tech who starts with the power supply when he mods gear.

[hank alrich]

sounds more like a headroom issue than transient response. The risetime doesn't change when you move the mic back but the amplitude at the mic does.

Proximity effect... mud...

Pull back and it helps reduce that effect and more clairity arises from the muck.

True..but the proximity effect mud is an issue with the mic, not the preamp. It's an increase in bass response due do being close to the capsule. When you back up from the mic it's not that the clarity comes from the preamp reacting differently, it's from being far enough away from the mic to avoid the proximity effect. Whether you're 2 inches from the mic or 5 feet from the mic, a fast preamp is fast and a slow preamp is slow. I agree that it seems like more of a headroom issue than transient response. If a shaker sounds like ass up close my first thought is that it's starting to distort a bit, which is definitely a possibility with a shaker close-miced.

As far as it sounding better with the API, not having the same issue, I'd assume it's that the API has higher headroom than the other pre's, so it's not distorting when close-miced. Plus since distortion is compression, if your shaker's distorting when close-miced then it might sound compressed, which could be perceived as the pre being too slow. Then you change to the API with higher headroom, so it's not distorting/compressing, so there's the clarity and "faster" sound you're expecting.

Plus hey, APIs are awesome.

API's are awesome, but they ain't the only awesome pres.

And you're right about the headroom thing, and that's why they pass the mud from proximity effect with greater clairity. They have the bandwidth, the low end macho that can get that through.

But if one hasn't a pre like that, back away from the mic. It's cheaper that way. You'll improve the sound, and enjoy that while saving for a better preamp.