String quartet advice

[Mane1234]

I've never recorded any classical music before. I will have some time to try a few different setups to see what might work best. I believe it will be a standup bass, a cello, a viola, and a violin. The space itself is rather large but ceiling space is 8 to 10 foot and it's typical ceiling tile with light fixtures.

Here a link to the pics of the space. Lots of hard reflective surface on the walls too. http://www.flickr.com/photos/38893323@N03/

Here's the gear that's available
Mics: Pair AT 4050
Pair Oktava 012
Pair Cascade Fathead II
Pair Cad Trion 7000
Beyer M160
B.L.U.E. Blueberry
Neumann TLM 103
Cascade VinJet
SM 81
Groove Tubes GT55

Pres: PM1K (8 channels all modded and recapped, 6 channels with EQ, 2 channels no EQ)
Scully 280 (2 channels)
Dan Alexander 1272 (2 channels)
Presonus Digimax
DBX 586 Upgraded tubes...Mullards I think
Focusrite Twin Trak

Compressors:
TF Pro P38 (stereo)
ART Pro VLA
Toft Audio DC-2

Recorder: Digi 002

So I guess my questions have to do mostly with mic setup issues. X-Y versus ORTF versus M-S. Any spot micing? One of the other issues is they'll be using those big black music stands. These are high school kids. Pretty talented but still kids so I'm sure they might be a little nervous when the red light comes on. I'm really looking forward to this and want to do the best job that I can. If it all works out well for everyone then it can turn into a regular gig for me. Anyone who has some experience working with classical groups I'd really appreciate hearing your input. I'm sure I'll have some mixing questions later on but first things first.

[svbsound]

1. Are those Oktava 012's modded? A moderate-distance XY pair with these could be cool on violin or viola.

2. In general, I find that experimentation with mic placement is key for string instruments; as different frequency ranges radiate off the soundboard more strongly in certain directions. Where you place the mics depends on the content of the piece- is the violin dominant, with its definition mostly in the upper midrange? If so you might want to emphasize it using a close-mic setup. Or do all four instruments share the sonic space more equally? Distant or room-miking might be the way to go.

No matter which setup works for each individual instrument, I'd probably use at least one M/S pair to establish overall stereo imaging since this sounds like a fairly intimate arrangement. Without a ton of instrumentation it can get hard to establish an stereo imaging but I've found it also helps to pan individual instruments (whether you've used a close stereo pair or not) somewhat off-center but not hard left or hard right. Play with the balance until you clearly hear the conversation the instruments have with each other in the L-R field.

And stay far enough away from the glass on that wall!

[bannerj]

for our recitals/concerts here, we only use one pair in X/Y. Classical peeps tend to love the omni supposing that the room does sound good. We have had the omni version of the shure 81 (the 83 I think?) and the Avenson omnis. The music dept recordist finally got his dream pair of Joesephsons C something. He loves omnis.

[svbsound]

When I was in college I used earthworks omnis all the time and loved them. Very flat response and ultra-transparent, great for room tone but might need some outboard tube sweetening if the track needs some color. Hmmm, might have to add a pair to my wishlist...

[Mane1234]

Since I'm getting the 4050's I'll have an omni option now so maybe an MS setup with the M160 and one of the Cascades and then the 4050's placed somewhere as a spaced pair in the omni setting. Has anyone ever done something like that?

[ott0bot]

The one thing I've found when recording strings and choirs is that the room is a huge part of the sound. If there is any possible way to record in a good sounding space with a higher ceiling I would opt for that. If you are using omni or other room mics a large percentage of the sound will be reflections. Think of a small theatre or a church and how the natural reverb gives everything a such a rich sound. Often times city run aditoriums or churches are fairly inexpensive to rent.

If you don't have a choice about location, then the first thing I would concentrate on is placement of the musicians, which they should be fairly adept to if they have orchestra experience. Find the right spot in the room, and make shure you aren't getting a bunch standing waves or low frequency build up. Then I'd get an omni mic or an x/y pair on an adapter so you can use a single stand. Omni if the room sounds really good, and I'd go x/y or spaced pair if the room isn't is a good. Then throw on a pair of headphones and walk around in front of the ensemble with them practicing so you can find the proper distance to where all the instruments are balanced. If you have someone helping you could be in the control room (if there is one) and have you friend move the mics while you're communicating to him/her. Spend a considerable amount of time finding a mic position and don't be afraid to as the musicians to move a little closer or farther from each other to get all instruments balanced.

Then I'd base your mic placement around that location. bring out another omni and find a second room location if needed. Then I'd close mic eveything you can and take advantage of the null points on the ribbon mics to reduce bleed. Ribbons sound great on bass and cello. One technique that I really like for bass is to wrap the mic on some foam padding and place in in the inside of the bridge with the capsule facing the body. I usually use an ldc and this like the 4050, but anything with a good low frequency response will be good. That blueberry will probably sound great on the violin or viola as would the m160. But experiment as much as you have time for. Once you have you room sound, these spot mics are just going to fill up the space, so use them to compliment the room sound, not distract from it.

Thats just what I've learned from a couple sessions I did a while back. i'd love to record some strings again, it's challenging and rewarding once you get everying thing in place. Hope that helps.

[Byll]

Just a quick aside, if I may: You have been given excellent advice. One issue bothers me. It is always good to be sure of your instrumentation, going in to a recording session. You say you believe the string quartet is a violin, viola, cello, and bass. I understand that you may be dealing with a non-standard instrumentation, but it would be good to check out this fact, carefully. The classic string quartet is comprised of two violins, a viola, and a cello.

Good luck with your recording.
Byll

[CurtZHP]

Paging Steve Berson.

Steve Berson to the white courtesy phone.

[Mane1234]

I think you're absolutely right about checking the facts of the situation. I was just going by what I was told and haven't had a chance yet to meet the musicians yet. I appreciate everyone who has chimed in so far. It's been very helpful. I feel like I have the mics to accomplish what we need to. I'm starting to think about the mic pres now and the fact that the most transparent one I have is the Presonus. Obviously it could do the job but there are better ones out there. I'm thinking about picking up a Sytek for this.

I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to work in some time to check out a few different setups and see which one sounds best. The room isn't horrible sounding so I'm still expecting to use some omni patterns and some ribbons. But if I need to change something then that's what I'll do. This is definitely going to be a learning experience for me and a welcome change from some of the loud ass rock music I'm use to doing. By all means please keep sharing your thoughts everyone. I know there are things I haven't considered yet so thanks in advance....

[DupleMeter]

99% of my work is live classical location recording. Given what you have, I would suggest the following:

Oktava pair in ORTF about 7-8' high out in front of the group where it balances well. This will be your main source of pickup for the recording. Use a matched pair of preamp channels, something relatively clean & transparent.

Flank your main stereo pair with the 4050s in omni - one on either side of the Oktavas, but in-line with them. These will add low-end bloom and depth. You'll bring these up in your mix just until you feel the sound 'open' and 'warm' up. If the room just sounds bad - use very little of these or none at all. These are expendable in the mix.

Lastly, use spots where necessary - but remember to time align them to the main pair or you will get phasing. If the room is decent and the players can balance themselves - setting your Oktavas and 4050s properly will negate the need for spots with a group this small. I've recorded entire orchestras with 4 mics in this type of arrangement with very good results.

For the record, a string quartet is 'cello, viola & 2 violins. A string orchestra is bass, 'cello, viola & 2 violins. The instrumentation you describe is non-standard. You should ask for a pre-production meeting to nail down details like instrumentation, repertoire and program order. I usually ask for copies of the scores for making notes during the performance...but that requires that you be able to read music. If not, just keep a notebook and mark anything of note in there with the time code for later reference.

Will this be a live performance?? If not, bring a few packing blankets to soften some of those hard surfaces...unless you have some portable gobos you could bring along.

Oh - and if you compress - go very, very light on it, and not during tracking. A large part of classical music is the dynamic range. Record in 24 bit at the highest sample rate your equipment can handle. Set levels so that during sound-check you're peaking at -12dBfs. This gives you plenty of headroom when they "dig in" for the real take, plus you'll still have headroom for mixing.

HTH

[hank alrich]

99% of my work is live classical location recording. Given what you have, I would suggest the following:

Oktava pair in ORTF about 7-8' high out in front of the group where it balances well. This will be your main source of pickup for the recording. Use a matched pair of preamp channels, something relatively clean & transparent.

Plenty of good advice there, Steve. The OP should consider that your suggested placement of the main pair will put it appropriately near "the critical distance", i.e., a point at which the direct and ambient sound are equal. That's the spot I seek for starters, and from there I move the mics either toward or away from the ensemble, depending on whether I want less or more of the room sound.

As for compressing, I say skip it on the way in. Track at 24 bits and leave plenty of headroom. If dynamics need restraining, do it later in post.

[DupleMeter]

I was actually suggesting that the main pair be placed right in front of the group. I guess that wasn't clear. I would start the positioning right where the conductor would stand. Or right behind him if there is one. Just make sure it's high enough to be above head level. Orchestral strings radiate sound upwards off the instrument at almost a 45 degree angle.

That should be well in front of the room's critical distance and the use of ORTF will minimize the room tone. That way the 2 flanked omnis can be used to add as much or as little room tone as needed. And if the room just doesn't sound good, they can be omitted completely.

Hope that clears it up.