Question about recorded cymbals.

T-rex · Post by **T-rex** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:52 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:Could it be short release time on smashed drum compressors accentuating the already quick decay time of cymbals?

Bingo. I mean samples I am sure, but take a normal overhead track, run it through a comp with an attack time that allows the attack of the cymbals through but then clamps down on the decay.

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:23 pm

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that all of the crash cymbals are overdubbed on all of those albums. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that every drum sound you hear on those albums, including cymbals, is a sample.

I know for a fact that this is not the case on the Paramore record. Those drums get smashed through a parallel comp, probably a Compex. There are lots of samples added in kick and snare, but nothing outright replaced.

Some of the super-awesome big-shot mixers like to ride the overheads up when a crash is hit. If you're using an automated console, in touch mode or whatever, just ride them up when they're hit and let the fader come back down naturally. This way you keep the drum sound mostly close mics and samples, and just get the overheads in for the cymbals.

jgimbel · Post by **jgimbel** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:54 pm

Is there an echo in here?

Brett Siler · Post by **Brett Siler** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:06 pm

I'll echo.

My friend works with a lot bands in that genre and 99% are get their drums sampled, voices autotuned, and everything locked to a grid. It just has become the norm for that genre.

I'll mix the band at a live show and then hear a recording from that band, and they sound completely different sometimes, you know like they are actually competent musicians. Its weird.

jgimbel · Post by **jgimbel** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:28 pm

Heh that's the opposite of what I was saying. It absolutely is the norm for 99%, but like I've said, I don't know that Paramore fits in that majority, even if judging alone from the fact that they spend a lot of time working on their skills (literally hours every day), and from hearing them live and having ridiculously similar drum sounds to the cd (like another poster said, very compressed, but real nonetheless).

squaresteve · Post by **squaresteve** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:08 pm

Hey,

I appreciate what everyone has offered! There are many good suggestions, and definitely tons of things worth thinking about. I've come to a conclusion that without using samples, it would make sense that the cymbals are likely individually mic-ed at close range (or in small clusters), and then can be processed in a more individual way. I guess as a guy who typically uses stereo overheads and a mono room mic with little else to supplement the cymbal/full kit/oh sound, this was an idea I had not really thought about.

@decocco: You are right about the Compex compressor being used on Riot, I emailed David Bendeth about his work on that album and that was a key piece he mentioned. He also didn't say anything about sample replacing each cymbal hit, so I gather that the debate on whether Paramore specifically uses cymbal samples might be answered there. I know supplemental samples were used for the drums on that record, as he mentioned in a thread on another forum.

I should mention I ask these questions not because I particularly love the genre really, or because I really love these types of sounds, or because I care about who uses samples and who doesn't. Its just that in certain instances there are some really crazy and unique techniques that people have developed that soon after end up defining the sound of a given genre. Even if using such methods goes against my personal feelings as an engineer and/or a drummer, I feel like in the interest of my clients these are tools I'd like in my bag... and I want to believe I can achieve this particular sort of sound without replacing every cymbal hit, even if I can't haha...

Steve

Brett Siler · Post by **Brett Siler** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:41 am

jgimbel wrote:Heh that's the opposite of what I was saying.

uh it was opposite day when I said that....

decocco · Post by **decocco** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:16 am

I've had the pleasure of assisting Bendeth and his engineers. They like to use spot mics on the cymbals, like almost a mic per cymbal. But the mics aren't super close, maybe a foot away from each cymbal. SDC's on the cymbals.

Those guys get really good drum sounds in tracking. Like, seriously good. The drums sound awesome before things get compressed and samples added. They work with great, hard-hitting drummers playing awesome kits.

It is common for them to rent drum kits, or at least an assortment of snare drums.

getreel · Post by **getreel** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:00 am

Not to mention they don't use any pitch correction on her voice

I wish that were true for the Miley Cyrus songs my daughter is listening to. So much Autotune going on, it's a distraction to me.

jgimbel · Post by **jgimbel** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:03 am

getreel wrote:
Not to mention they don't use any pitch correction on her voice
I wish that were true for the Miley Cyrus songs my daughter is listening to. So much Autotune going on, it's a distraction to me.

Ain't it the truth. From what I hear (and strangely) the singer from Paramore is friends with Miley Cyrus. I wish some of that recording integrity would rub off (not that the recording process is completely under either of their control but some much needed "I'm better than this" balls wouldn't hurt).

digitaldrummer · Post by **digitaldrummer** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:34 am

one thing not mentioned yet (at least not that I saw) is that the room could make a big difference too. In some rooms you may get a lot more reflection of the cymbals back into the mics and in other (better) rooms the cymbals should decay more naturally and require less processing. I'm guessing a lot of these bands are probably doing the drums in bigger rooms with high ceilings.

??????? · Post by **???????** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:33 pm

how hard the cymbals are hit makes a diff, too. A cymbal hit at a softer dynamic behaves like a heavier cymbal-- slower envelope, slower decay, smaller 'crest factor' to totally misuse an actual term. Higher wash-to-attack ratio (louder wash compared to the initial hit).

A cymbal hit harder behaves more like a thinner cymbal-- fast envelope, fast decay, high "crest factor" to misuse it again. Higher attack-to-wash ratio (bigger gulf between attack and wash).

With a cymbal the ratio of attack/sustain isn't all about how heavy the cymbal is... it's a function of the heaviness of the cymbal with the hardness of the hit.

Remember that a rock player's "ultra-thin crash" is a jazz player's ideal ride.

moathouse · Post by **moathouse** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:21 pm

decocco wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that all of the crash cymbals are overdubbed on all of those albums. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that every drum sound you hear on those albums, including cymbals, is a sample.
I know for a fact that this is not the case on the Paramore record. Those drums get smashed through a parallel comp, probably a Compex. There are lots of samples added in kick and snare, but nothing outright replaced.

Some of the super-awesome big-shot mixers like to ride the overheads up when a crash is hit. If you're using an automated console, in touch mode or whatever, just ride them up when they're hit and let the fader come back down naturally. This way you keep the drum sound mostly close mics and samples, and just get the overheads in for the cymbals.

decocco hit the nail on the head. they ride the "overheads" on the desk. i say "overheads" cause usually, they think of it as a cymbal mic and NOT the overall kit.
I have seen a lord alge mix playing back, and the cymbals jump up with every hit, and fade back down-- you can do this in the box pretty easy if you have an interface-- i just squish them to easy the decay, and use a shitload of felts tight on the cymbals, and try to stick to 16" crashes. a good drummer who knows how to hit crashes really helps--

thththediamondz · Post by **thththediamondz** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:45 pm

in one of my first bands, i would tape the guitar first and then slow the tape speed down for the drummers tracks. (tascam 424)
this was actually because they had trouble with keeping up, but one thing i noticed was that there was a lot of things i liked more about the drums after we brought the song back to normal speed.
cymbals &then it also just tightened up the whole kit. it sounded more like a record i remember thinking.
i'm sure this isn't what paramore is doing. haha. but i thought i'd mention anyway.

thththediamondz · Post by **thththediamondz** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:52 pm

in one of my first bands, i would tape the guitar first and then slow the tape speed down for the drummers tracks. (tascam 424)
this was actually because they had trouble with keeping up, but one thing i noticed was that there was a lot of things i liked more about the drums after we brought the song back to normal speed.
cymbals &then it also just tightened up the whole kit. it sounded more like a record i remember thinking.
i'm sure this isn't what paramore is doing. haha. but i thought i'd mention anyway.

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