Question about recorded cymbals.

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squaresteve
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Question about recorded cymbals.

Post by squaresteve » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:23 pm

Hey,

I have noticed that in a lot of records spanning multiple decades, the cymbals have a faster-than-real-life decay. I have recorded many "fast-crashes" of Zildjian A and K varieties, and a lot of other thin cymbals, and I can assert for sure that they don't die nearly as quickly as a lot of what I hear. Some good examples that band's have brought to me as references recently are Paramore's "Riot," Say Anything's "In Defense of The Genre," and NoFX's "So Long And Thanks For All The Shoes" albums. I am a drummer, and even though this sounds so unnatural to me, it does make for a lot of extra space in the mix, and seems like a trend worth figuring out.

I realize this could be achieved by recording the drums and the cymbals seperately, and then automating each cymbal hit, but I also don't think every record that has this sort of cymbal sound has been recorded like that. I'd like to know if it is something that is done to the cymbals themselves, if it is some type of unique processing, or a combination of both.

I realize as always that a good drummer in a good room is imperative. I think the severity of the quick decay on the cymbals I'm talking about extends far beyond something natural like that though... I would love any insight as to how this sort of unnaturally quick sound is achieved.

Thanks,
Steve

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Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:55 pm

gates? or maybe the overheads are higher above the kit? or maybe just crazy editing.
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Post by jgimbel » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:48 pm

My girlfriend is obsessed with Paramore and I've heard a lot of their recordings. I like their guitar sounds but their drums are always ridiculously heavily compressed. I don't know if that has anything to do with it (though it might), just saying.

To me it appears that it's not the cymbal itself is actually decaying that fast (though they do use a lot of smaller/faster cymbals), but it's that you're just not hearing most of the decay because of the mix. The cymbals tend to be on the lower side volume-wise so the majority of what you're really hearing is the transient, not much else. The drum parts are generally pretty fast and the decay seems to be instantly drowned out by everything else. For me it's something that, with that style of music, I have trouble recording it any other way, though I definitely notice it more when using my 16" Sabians rather than the 18" Zildjians that I use for my own stuff.

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Post by digitaldrummer » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:57 pm

pretty sure that Paramore album had lots of drums replacement samples too (sound replacer, drumagog, etc.), or at least is heavy on the "supplemental" samples.
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Post by squaresteve » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:00 pm

Thanks for the responses!

I've thought about the possibility of the overhead mics being higher, but the reason I have determined that that is not likely the cause of such a ridiculously fast decay is because the positions of the cymbals across the stereo field is still really separated from one another in each example. If the overheads were up super high, the wash of cymbals would be more mixed than closer OH micing, further blurring whatever seperation exists. It is that delicate balance of separation and crazy fast decay that baffles me.

Gating is another option I've thought about but in every attempt I've ended up with a situation where the treshold cannot be set to a precise enough degree because of the interference from other drums. If the gate (or expander) is set to close at a specified time after a given cymbal hit to define its short decay, and then a snare comes crashing through soon after, the product becomes un-useably choppy. If I high pass upwards of 500hz on the OH tracks before gating this becomes less of a problem, but I really hate doing that, and the results still aren't great.

Good point about the information that I'm hearing being mostly the transients. I originally attributed this sort of percieved decay to that as well, but after hearing breaks where just the drums play, and even super sparse songs that still have this going on, I don't believe it is entirely that--though likely a good bit of it. To that end, I have experimented with a transient designer, and it seems plausible that this could be part of the answer, but even with the sustain set very low, it is still not possible to get such short decay times from the cymbals in my experience. Furthermore, I have done mixes that were as dense as some of these examples, and despite all the elements, I still have more natural decay times happening in a clearly audible way on my cymbals. I never thought of it before I started noticing these super short decays, and now I can't stop until I figure it out...

I bet it is most likely crazy editing, but even then I'd like to know what is being done. Automating all the OH tracks, drawing in every cymbal's decay?

Anyone other ideas are greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Steve

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Post by chris harris » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:32 pm

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that all of the crash cymbals are overdubbed on all of those albums. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that every drum sound you hear on those albums, including cymbals, is a sample.

I can almost guarantee that all of the drum tracks on all of those albums were edited extensively. With heavy use of samples, and the drum tracks all chopped up already, it seems it would be pretty easy to manipulate the decay time of crash hits with fades, gates or Transient Designer.

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Post by mscottweber » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:54 pm

Gating is another option I've thought about but in every attempt I've ended up with a situation where the treshold cannot be set to a precise enough degree because of the interference from other drums.
I have never tried editing drums this way, but I bet that if you gated the overheads to get the cymbal decay to sound like you want it to, you could sound replace the other drums and it would cover up the choppiness that the gate causes.

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Post by squaresteve » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:44 pm

I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that all of the crash cymbals are overdubbed on all of those albums. I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that every drum sound you hear on those albums, including cymbals, is a sample.
I guess niether would I, especially the records I listed... I find myself perplexed by this though, because I can think of times where I've been listening to records from long ago that have a similar thing going on... I wish I could think of one now... I guess if every single cymbal hit is replaced with a sample, and that is the cheif way to achieve such a sound, I should rephrase my question.

How could this sort of sound be closely achieved without the use of samples for cymbals?

I don't know why I am so hung up on it. I just can't get over how many records have this sort of characteristic, and I suppose I don't want to believe that every hit is a sample... (Nothing wrong with samples whatsoever, but you know what I mean).

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Post by Studio Steve » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:05 pm

I think mic'ing closer to the cymbals might be a good place to start, and doing it with isolation in mind, which is not always the default when I mic cymbals, since I usually use a stereo overhead pair which picks up the whole drum set. If you were to use a more directional mic and face it away from other drums as much as possible, this might help, and having the mic closer to the cymbal should get the ratio between the cymbal sound and the other drums' sound higher. The higher you get that ratio, the more effectively you should be able to gate the cymbals without having other drum hits trigger it. You don't even have to have the gate set so that you get the decay and reverberation from the cymbal, you can set it so you just get the attack and barely anything else if you have to, then put a reverb on it with a short decay time to compensate, following the gate. I don't know if that's how any of these folks did it, I do know that on Bad Religion's newest album they recorded the skins and cymbals on different takes.

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Question about recorded cymbals.

Post by bestmixerever » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:12 am

The cymbals disappear quickly in a mix because their attack is so much louder than their decay. By the time the cymbals start to decay, one of the dozens of other sounds in the mix has already masked it. The faster the tempo or denser the mix the quicker the masking begins to occur. The
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Question about recorded cymbals.

Post by bestmixerever » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:12 am

The cymbals disappear quickly in a mix because their attack is so much louder than their decay. By the time the cymbals start to decay, one of the dozens of other sounds in the mix has already masked it. The faster the tempo or denser the mix the quicker the masking begins to occur.
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Post by Dave-H » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:23 am

I have raised all the cymbals on my drum kits about 4" or so. I get much better separation & less spill this way. For a long time I had my crashes pretty high but I had my ride low & over the bass drum. The overheads werent picking it up as well & there was cross bleed in the bass drum & floor tom mic. After raising the ride 4" I didn't have that problem any more.

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Post by A.David.MacKinnon » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:41 pm

I'm going to second or 3rd the idea that the cymbals were overdubbed and/or most of what you're hearing is samples. That just seems to be the way things are made at the pop/pun factory these days.

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Post by jgimbel » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:41 pm

While I wouldn't be totally floored if I'm hearing samples, Paramore is surprisingly involved with their recording process more than someone as cynical as me would expect. Just from what I've read and seen, and heard from the band themselves (the lead singer for example) I wouldn't expect it from them. I don't know that it necessarily means they didn't use samples, but I saw them play recently and they sounded exactly the same live (miced) as they did on the album. They use a lot of compression on the drums live as well, but you can still definitely hear that it's the drums coming through. Their work ethic on skill alone makes it not hard for me to believe that it could be just real playing. To use the singer as an example again (from what my girlfriend tells me she writes on Twitter) works with a vocal coach almost every day, and goes through long periods on tour where she literally is not allowed to talk so she can save her voice. I know that dedication to musical skill doesn't necessarily mean that things aren't cheated/using tricks, but I know if I worked that hard literally every day on my instrument(s)/singing, I wouldn't be so happy with someone replacing it all with samples. Not to mention they don't use any pitch correction on her voice, which is another reason it might be possible that they're using a bit more of a pure recording process than would be expected from that genre.

But who knows, I might be wrong. Plus that's just the one band, I don't know about the others you mentioned.

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:34 pm

Could it be short release time on smashed drum compressors accentuating the already quick decay time of cymbals?
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