Other insulation types

[LeedyGuy]

I have a basement studio and I am getting to be pretty happy with the room, but it is SO LOUD upstairs in the house. I think it is because I have a cardboard click together ceiling (total crap) in the studio and the upstairs floors are hardwood which is probably almost acting as amplification!

Anyone have any experience with blown-in insulation? There is really no chance of the basement ceiling coming down, but if I just get insulation blown in between the floor joists, that might help a bunch, right?

-Ken

[daveg62]

No actually that will help very little if at all. I've been researching this very same problem and how to correct it. I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum, www.johnlsayers.com. You need mass, and lots of it meaning drywall cut and fit in between the joists, several layers and caulk every void and edge. Then two more layers of drywall hung de-coupled from the bottom of the joists. Using a product called green glue between drywall layers offers more isolation. There's really no easy cheap way to do it. Regular insulation will do very little, better with rockwool but still won't help much by itself.

[LeedyGuy]

I have posted about this before actually. I really can't take my ceiling down because I had a serious rodent issue when I moved in the house and I am sure that it is really bad up there in the ceiling and full of dead mice and poo.

[norton]

Well... Mass is part of it. But you MUST have insulation in whatever cavity: wall, floor/ceiling etc.. in order for it to work well.

So adding any insulation to your present situation will help. It's not going to make your spaces completely isolated... but it will shift things about pretty dramatically.

What I mean by that is: at normal conversational volume.... just adding insulation to the cavity will dramatically cut the transmission of those frequencies. However, as we add volume to the sound source you start to come up against the mass issue rather quickly.

I have no idea what a cardboard click together ceiling is. Can you post pictures?

If it's some sort of fiber based drop ceiling treatment.. you're going to have to open it up. There's really no other way.

And really dead rodents aren't much better than live rodents in your house. You'll be far better off getting rid of them.

Goggles, Good dust masks... some flashlights... long sleeves and a shopvac. One ceiling tile at a time... and you'll be done before you know it. If you go slow and are careful, maybe it won't be that bad?

If you really want to cut down on LOUD sound transmissions.. you're going to want to go with any cheap fluffy insulation (r-11) RISC clips, hat channel, and two layers of sheetrock with green glue between them. If you seal up your edges nice and tight with a good flexible caulking you'll have built pretty much the best isolation available - outside of structurally re-engineering your house with acoustic isolation in mind.

check out the soundproofingcompany.com for drawings... test reports and the clips etc.. you should be able to get hat channel at any home depot etc..

good luck!

[LeedyGuy]

Wow thanks so much for all the advice! Unfortunately, taking the ceiling down just isnt an option. Dead rodents are horrible, i know, but I just can't do it. There's probably 40 years worth of mouse shit up there. The rugs would never survive it....!

I'm looking at getting my attic done with blown in cellulose insulation and while the guy was here, I figured I might consider getting him to blow insulation in the attic ceiling as well. He said that he can get an R rating of 33 in my attic in only about 3 inches of space with the blown in stuff.

-Ken

[JWL]

Leedy, Norton is right. Listen to him.

Your plan will help a bit, but as Norton puts it you will come up against the volume issue pretty quickly. Doing the space the way you describe will not give you great results.

[digitaldrummer]

and every time you hit the kick drum and a puff of rat poo dust comes floating down into your lungs can't be all that healthy either...

[norton]

I checked out your website links.. and i've re-habbed a bundle of basements with that kind of panelling etc.. Most of those build-outs were done with firring strips or perhaps, but much more rarely, full 2x4's right up on the bare concrete or stone foundations. The sidecar wood pieces then nailed up to that frame.

Personally I like the look. Wood is good.... BUT it's not a very good way to finish out a space in an area where temp and humidity can fluctuate wildly.

Today, you'd line your basement walls with some sort of styrofoam insulation, then build out with green treated framing.. and use mold resistant sheetrock or some such equivalent for the walls. Perhaps even installing a drain tile under the perimeter of the basement floor. All in hopes to minimize rot, mold, insect and possibly rodent build up.

So what does that have to do with your current situation???


So.. What I'm trying to tell you, is that IF you blow in insulation into your existing ceiling cavities... You will still have a space between the finished wall and your upstairs floor. That's going to be your weak point..... No matter what you do to the existing ceiling...That empty space will allow sound to travel freely between the up and down stairs... Unless the wall cavities are also filled with insulation.

If you fill those wall cavities with insulation, in a short time.... you'll very likely have a serious, health-hazard sized mold problem on your hands.

It really sucks.. but all of this crap is completely inter-connected.

In acoustic construction situations....you will only ever be able to have isolation as good as your weakest link. So you can either address the weakest link... or try to work around it.

It would seem to be a giant waste of money and effort to even blow insulation into your present situation. Even though blown insulation is cheap and relatively easy to do... It just wouldn't be worth the effort.

If you did blow insulation in....Would you notice a difference?

Yes, very likely.

You wouldn't hear the TV upstairs as much. Or footfalls. As much.... But you'd still hear the music... maybe, maybe you'd perceive a difference in the quality of the sound getting upstairs, but certainly not the perceived loudness of that sound.

I really don't like to bring you bad news..... but you've got to deal with what's in front of you. Truly. From personal experience... This kind of thing is NOT worth doing half-assed.

Half priced? YES..... Re-used materials? YES..... McGruder styled sound proofing techniques... Probably not.

So if your ceiling isn't designated as a Superfund Cleanup Site... I'd say you'd be Very well served in systematically and carefully removing the problem, and solving it.

It'll be a smart move down the road when you need to have the house appraised... or even decide to move it on up.

Good luck!

[losthighway]

I had essentially the same type of ceiling where my new live room is. It did seem to amplify things in either direction. I undertook the project people seem to be recommending (layers of dw between joists, caulk and backer rod, resilient channel drywall ceiling) and while the far end of the room isn't done, and you can TOTALLY tell in the bedroom above that part of the room, I can hear the difference.

And this is the kicker, after countless hours of labor and easily a grand spent over the course of the summer on building supplies, it isn't like it's silent up stairs. You can hear exactly what a singer is saying during band practice, you can really hear if a bass player has bad time during a session- all of this is clear up stairs. But it's quieter. You can also watch a movie during it, or have a conversation without raising your voice.

There is nothing better than a completely isolated second ceiling. I couldn't do that. I opted for a split the difference design (RC instead of second ceiling) and it helped quite a bit. Even then, a rock band is a loud thing, you have to humble yourself to the force of sound and just how difficult isolation is to achieve.

[LeedyGuy]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

I just redid my attic with this stuff from a company called Certainteed. http://www.certainteed.com/products/insulation/317347

They are plastic wrapped batts and I have about 6 or 8 bundles left over that I can bring back to Home Depot, BUT

Is this stuff worth using as clouds or as just some corner trapping as pillows or something? I was thinking maybe I could get those cardboard cement column tubes and just stuff this stuff in it and put said columns in the corners of my room or something. Think it would help my room to sound a little better? I am already up to my ass in LENRDS in this room and they have really changed the sound of the room for the better.