Can earplugs have the opposite effect?

vivalastblues · Post by **vivalastblues** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:26 pm

I usually wear earplugs when playing live or rehearsing, but last night I went to a show which was particularly loud and didn't wear them much. Next day, my ears are still ringing, but none of my friends' ears are. It made me wonder...are my ears now more susceptible to damage as theyre 'weaker' (having being 'softened' by the plugs ie. theyre not used to taking as much noise) from having used earplugs? Or is it a level playing field and everyone's ears can take pretty much the same amount of noise before ringing starts and/or deafness sets in? Anyone know about this stuff?

losthighway · Post by **losthighway** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:43 pm

No, wear plugs. Every show. Seriously. Your ears are not 'soft' from being subjected less, they are just less damaged. Once the damage is done it is permanent.

When I go up to a cabin in the woods and get away from constant sound I can hear my tinnitus and it gives me a lot of anxiety. Our ears are our most important pieces of gear as engineers.

vivalastblues · Post by **vivalastblues** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:47 pm

Thank you for that post, it's made me feel a bit better. I do try to take care of my ears as best I can, and recommend earplugs to others as well. I have friends that go to clubs where the music seems to be louder than it would be at even a live show, and they dont really seem to get ringing. I wonder if that's because they've already been damaged and thus there's no 'warning sign' from the ears anymore, or if theyre just used to it...

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:07 am

yeah, I kind of wish I hadn't done live sound for so long. Hearing damage is inescapable in that gig. Either a drummer starts bashing away while you are putting mics on his snare (really! what a dick!) or a vocalist walks up to the open mic and tries out his loudest "check" while you have the headphones all the way up. Those incedents add up. Thing is you cant mix a show with plugs in. But you can wear them when you are running around!
I will leave a show if I forget mine and none are around.
I need to keep what little hearing I have left!
Or I guess I could always move over into making gear or something.
I am getting more calls for fixing stuff lately.

lyman · Post by **lyman** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:28 am

lost blues wrote:...are my ears now more susceptible to damage as theyre 'weaker' (having being 'softened' by the plugs ie. theyre not used to taking as much noise) from having used earplugs? f?

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it works like that. You don't build up a tolerance to volume - all you do is cause damage. When I was a kid and first started going to loud shows, my ears always rang afterward. Now, if I see a band or play a gig they don't, but it's not because they're "stronger" ears. I just don't notice the harm it causes anymore. Which is why it's so dangerous: when you really notice it, it will be too late. But I'm not an audiologist so what do I know.

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:36 am

I worked for 3 years as a bartender with the dance-floor PA - huge-freekin'-mungous - to my left.

Then for years I almost always played from stage right so the crash was to my left.

I am aware of some hearing loss on that side, especially when trying to listen to a female speaking in a crowd.

I always sat to my ex's right.

kinger · Post by **kinger** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:31 am

Ear damage is progressive and permanent; once you damage the hair cells in your ears, that's it. You're ears don't get tougher, you only go more deaf. Please, please, please continue to wear hearing protection!

Scodiddly · Post by **Scodiddly** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:58 pm

What everyone else already said... wear earplugs, save your hearing. Your friends probably already have some cumulative damage. Not all hearing damage results in tinnitus!

Back in college I mixed a lot of nights at a loud bar, up against a wall on my right side that reflected (doubled, basically) the horn on the right side. Had a ringing in my ears for 2-3 months after I'd stopped doing that, but it did fade. Good news now is that I still have really sensitive hearing, bad news is that the left ear is slightly better. Guess I had a little loss after all.

winky dinglehoffer · Post by **winky dinglehoffer** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:43 pm

The original poster's question made me think about an experience I've had once or twice, but which was especially bad at a Wire show I went to a few years back. I had my earplugs in as usual, & the show sounded like shit. Like all the worst harmonics of the instruments were being accentuated somehow. And I wasn't the only guy with earplugs in who was glaring at the dude mixing the show. The friend I was with was not wearing plugs & thought the show sounded fine. I popped out my plugs & sure enough, it sounded pretty okay.
I couldn't help but wonder (& I still do) what was going on. Were various (particularly ugly) frequencies sneaking past the plugs at full volume, while all the pleasant frequencies were being attenuated? Were the plugs actually helping anything in this situation? Were they making matters worse?

I've noticed this happening a couple other times, but never quite so dramatically as this case. Anybody else had similar?

calaverasgrandes · Post by **calaverasgrandes** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:29 pm

I used to be really uptight about my hearing. I would wear earplugs all the time in daily life. Stuff like busses hitting their air brakes, jackhammers, trucks, horns honking etc. All way to loud.thing was I ended up lowering my threshold so that anything but living room volume was too loud for me. While the ear doesnt have a way to toughen up, it does have a way to back off the mechanism a little bit so that you arent hearing everything at full volume.
If you run into a club while the band is playing you will probably feel pain. If you take your time to get from teh front of the club to the stage area your ears have time to adjust their threshold.

About plugs making it sound bad. some bands (and some PAs) just have crappy directionality. Either the instruments they are playing are very beamy and tend to shoot midrange in a narrow path, or the PA may have a very lobey pattern, so that 1k is high in one area, then 3 feet to the left i1k is down 6db and 2k is upby a similar amount.
I noticed when I used to mix live that it was worthless to sit on your ass allnight, you have to walk the floor and make sure the mix translates!

One problem a lot of mixers fall prey to is when the guitar amp is out of their line of sight (out of their line of hear!) they boost it up in the mains/mons and the audience is grilled with guitar.

cdixon6 · Post by **cdixon6** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:49 pm

Ear damage is progressive and permanentquote]

ditto. One thing my audiologist told me last year is the damage you have is degenerative. Crazy.

klangtone · Post by **klangtone** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:29 pm

Regarding ear plugs making live mixes sound bad- yes, this is most often the case. Ear plugs (especially cheap ones) do not attenuate all frequencies evenly. So they end up totally altering the sound of anything that comes at you. You can spend more for earplugs that are flatter, but the pair I got like that still left something to be desired.

But use them!

Roy

Snarl 12/8 · Post by **Snarl 12/8** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:56 pm

cdixon6 wrote:
Ear damage is progressive and permanent
ditto. One thing my audiologist told me last year is the damage you have is degenerative. Crazy.

What did you say?

That joke never gets old.

Scodiddly · Post by **Scodiddly** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:48 am

klangtone wrote:Regarding ear plugs making live mixes sound bad- yes, this is most often the case. Ear plugs (especially cheap ones) do not attenuate all frequencies evenly. So they end up totally altering the sound of anything that comes at you. You can spend more for earplugs that are flatter, but the pair I got like that still left something to be desired.

But use them!

Roy

Your ears will actually distort when things get loud enough, though it's different for each person and changes with age. I've found that a lot of live mixes sound *better* with good earplugs because they drop the SPL below my personal distortion threshold.

Z-Plane · Post by **Z-Plane** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:49 am

Yes, and I've had far more success with industrial 40dbMAX plugs than any of the frequency-balanced varieties. I find that all it takes is ten minutes for your brain to readjust to the curve and everything is fine, be it FOH or stood right next to the bins. Remember, the most damaging thing in loud concert environments is usually other humans shouting in your ear. Back on topic - don't judge your own ears by the ringing in someone elses, keep plugs everywhere in all your bag pockets and get used to putting them in.

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Can earplugs have the opposite effect?

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