Listening to Monitors

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:30 am

It seems like when I'm listening to my monitors for mixing I quickly lose my perspective of things. Like, I feel like I don't know what I'm hearing exactly. This makes it extra difficult to mix in order to make things translate well on other playback systems.

Also, I have NS10s and some other speakers that are consumer (and a little customized) and when listening to the NS10s my ears feel fatigued and I get almost a real slight headache within 10-15 minutes or so and I have to stop for a bit/while.

What I do a lot is I get away from my 'mix position' because it seems I have more perspective by listening to things in a less optimal way. Sometimes I think maybe I'm listening too closely to my speakers in the sense that they are around 3' from my head; when I'm further away from them I feel like I can 'hear' better and have more perspective on things and I don't get fatigued as quickly as well.

One more thing, what volume do you guys/girls mix at? When I took recording technique classes at my community college my professor would always say he'd mix at very low volumes. I try to mix at low volumes, medium volumes, not blasting it, but i guess those terms are subjective.

My room is very small but 'treated.'

Thoughts?

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:45 am

I am not experienced with NS10's, but based on their rep - said to be harsh and "trebly" - I think I would use them only to check mixes, not mix on for long periods of time.

Altho', they are an old standard.

It strikes me that you might be listening to them too loud.

A Sound Level Meter is a good investment; I paid mebbe US$35 some years ago for one from Rat Shack. From using it, I have learned that 80-85dB is a good level for me, and I have also learned to find that level on pretty much any system at any listening position.

FWIW, my main monitors are Tannoy PBM6-II's, and I also sometimes reference to some Dual 4" two-ways, a Logitech satellite/woofer computer set, some Grafyx SP10's (designed as a loud speaker), and metal Optimus 5" (more Rat shack stuff), as well as various home stereos (kitchen, bathroom, living room), and various headphones.

Your signature line, BTW, made me pucker.

DupleMeter · Post by **DupleMeter** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:04 am

NS-10s can be hard to listen to over a long period of time. I used to use them to spot check against the big & medium monitors just to see what happened to the low end and how harsh the top end was. I don't know if I would use them as my main mix monitors, but if it's what you have you may need to look into other aspects of your mix room.

I agree on the Sound Level Meter - get one, set it to C weighting/slow response and measure your level at playback. I find I'm most comfortable around the 75-77 dBspl mark, and calibrate my playback system accordingly.

Also, check you frequency response at your mix position. I use FuzzMeasure (http://supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/), but there are many options to choose from. That may give you some insight into the total room response & may give you some ideas for changing the "treatment" of that room.

In the end, NS10s are known to be punchy and punchy is right were ear fatigue happens, so you may be forced to simply reduce levels and take breaks until you can get monitors with a more pleasing (i.e. flatter) response curve.

HTH

willowhaus · Post by **willowhaus** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Ditch the NS-10s, they're highly overrated. I remember people using them back in the 80's, when I was an intern. Sure, good for a reality check, but most guys mixed on the Urei Time-Align monitors (except for guys who put paper over the NS-10s tweeters, but that's a whole other thing...) .

Get the best set of bi-amplified monitors you can afford. ("Best" may be somewhat subjective - try before you buy, if possible.) Then, learn what stuff you're familiar with sounds like on those monitors.

Use these to mix, THEN check yourself on other speakers along the way.

thegeek · Post by **thegeek** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:55 pm

85db is about all the higher you want your volume for very long. After too long most people will start to feel their ears "close up". Its a good idea to keep it around there and take breaks every hour or so.

But... NS 10s are nasty little speakers. They are very fatiguing. JBL has a nice pair that I heard today. I don't remember the model but they ran about $700 for a pair. The idiot a GC kept trying to demo them with a crappy MP3 from his iPod (hiss for days.. it was almost painful) but after I got rid of him I hooked them up the the 003 they had there... very nice.

Autodidact · Post by **Autodidact** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:38 pm

So the general consensus is that the ns10s are very fatiguing. Well it makes sense.

I want to try measuring the level I mix at and try what you guys suggest, but I need to get one of those level meters. Is there anything else I might be able to use in the mean time to determine what level I'm listening at?

I guess I'm gonna have to invest in some new good monitors; I kind of thought people mixed on ns10s? I have heard that they're 'shitty sounding' or 'fatiguing' but not to the extent that I get fatigued with just a few minutes of mixing.

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:57 am

i personally can't really deal with ns10s, but i would rather mix on those than something all 'boom and sizzle' like some genelecs i've heard.

85db, to me, is Pretty Fucking Loud, i know it's the 'proper' level, but no way could i mix all day at that level. i am probably usually around 80db when i'm mastering, mixing is usually much lower, around 70 or so, and i'll often mix with it really quiet, like 60. mixing really quiet is good for getting the balances together, so long as you know not to push the lows/highs to compensate for the low level.

most days i'll start out with the monitors relatively loud and then the level gets continually lower as the day goes on. whisper quiet seems plenty loud at 3am.

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:52 am

ns10's are great. you just have to have a good amp and a good room and not crank them. they sound awesome at like 70db, and tell you a lot about what's going on in your midrange on a mix...

i don't think i would ever want to mix without ns10's... great for making sure the kick and bass are working together on systems with limited low end response... it's really easy to be fooled by modern active monitors... lots of stuff 'seems' to work until you take it out of the studio... if a mix sounds good on ns10's and *insert your active monitors here* then it will probably work everywhere.

my only thoughts are that 3' is pretty close to your ears... that is like, reach out and touch the monitors from your mix position... i would try to get a bit further back, as it seems at that close range you are either in front of the tweeter, or the woofer, but probably not in the sweet spot... i dunno... just seems really close to me... a 5' equilateral triangle would be something good to aim for in your head to speakers layout.

john

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:43 am

Monitors are pretty personal. NS10s are like SM57s, ubiquitous, but not necessarily good. They are both harsh and fatiguing IMNSHO.

Dave-H · Post by **Dave-H** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:50 pm

Tony, A 57 sounds buttery smooth man

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:37 pm

Dave-H wrote:Tony, A 57 sounds buttery smooth man

Maybe if dipped in butter.

mstar · Post by **mstar** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:20 am

I had the same problem with ns10s... I used them for a year and a half and it really ended up being torture. I had them and some JBLs. I thought I had to learn how to mix on them but you know what? I said to myself, this is Bull... I don't like working on them. So I bought some Mackie HR824s.(no bashing please) I really have liked working on them the last 9 years. You have to learn them since they don't translate very well to the outside world but they were much more enjoyable to work with.

So find something you enjoy listening on... I could recommend many but that is just ridiculous. Monitors are a personal choice. A lot has to do with the room you are in, as well. Room treatment and a decent set of speakers is way better than a great set of speakers in a crappy room IMO.

SonicReducer · Post by **SonicReducer** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:57 am

ns10s have a bump between about 2k-4k, which is the area of the frequency spectrum most harsh to our ears, and therefore the most fatiguing.

You should try the old paper over the tweeters trick, thats cuts back on a little of that harshness, but not all that much. If you are getting a headache after 10 minutes I would say it is probably more of a problem with your room than anything else.

Nick Sevilla · Post by **Nick Sevilla** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:19 am

Try 75dB for mixing, maybe even 70 dB spl with the ns10s.

They are consumer speakers. Always were. Thats why if you get it right on those the mixes translate well on other speaker systems.

I personally mix on 4 different systems, including the self powered version of the ns10s, the MSP5s, and a mono Auratone speaker (THAT one is harsh if turned up)

Usually I'll monitor at about 72 dB spl on all of them (they're all calibrated to the same level and being fed by the same output mix buss) except for the Auratone, which I have at about 50-55dB spl, real quiet, and listen to any distortion / artifacts / muddiness, which means my balance is not there yet.

Cheers

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:40 am

toaster3000 wrote:ns10's....... you just have to have a good amp and a good room and not crank them.

big +1
good amp makes all the diff w NS10's

that said I wouldn't want to listen to 'em all day.

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Listening to Monitors

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