BMI, ASCAP fees = lose my gig

[chris harris]

Yes, the system should be fixed. But, problems with "the system" aside, it's not unfair to expect a busines establishment to pay to license the music that their customers enjoy. It's part of the cost of doing business.

[JGriffin]

Yes, the system should be fixed. But, problems with "the system" aside, it's not unfair to expect a busines establishment to pay to license the music that their customers enjoy. It's part of the cost of doing business.

True. And I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[cgarges]

A bunch of this kind of stuff has already been covered here so it'd be great to stay on kweis7's original topic and not fall into an argument about whether or not anyone should be paying ASCAP fees in general.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[roscoenyc]

I'm curious how this particular restaurant got on the radar screens of both ASCAP and BMI. I know that they have the right to go in on their artists' behalf, but it seems an unlikely coincidence. Did the owner advertise live music?

BMI, ASCAP & SESAC have kids (ie interns) scanning the net trying to find places that have music and are not in their system. Lately they have been focusing on Reverb Nation gig entries.

[JGriffin]

A bunch of this kind of stuff has already been covered here so it'd be great to stay on kweis7's original topic and not fall into an argument about whether or not anyone should be paying ASCAP fees in general.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Sorry about that.

[cgarges]

No problem. I just didn't want to see this spiral down in flames quickly or anything.

As you were.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Jon Nolan]

EDIT: I wasn't helping. just venting! nothing to see here...

[kweis7]

So the BMI guy has really been harassing the owner; I've not heard any of the conversations directly but the guy sounds like a true confidence dealer. If he had been willing to negotiate he might have gotten some $. She's irked by his vibe and doesn't like being strong armed.

So, we have agreed to roll with classical guitar (Bach, Luis Milan, Scarlatti etc.), ASCAP-only and original music. Now I need to write and practice my classical guitar, which is a good thing.


FWIW, once you find a tune that is listed only in the ASCAP database and not the BMI database, it is likely all tunes by that writer are ASCAP only. I could probably play the whole gig just doing Johnny Mercer tunes - that guy was prolific.


So, until the owner gets served by BMI, the gig continues. I'm all for being legit with licensing, taxes etc. but there should be an easier and more reasonable way for smaller establishments to comply. If the owner had known prior to starting with music about the BMI/ASCAP deal as it exists now I definitely would not have this gig, which serves nobody.

[cgarges]

So the BMI guy has really been harassing the owner; I've not heard any of the conversations directly but the guy sounds like a true confidence dealer. If he had been willing to negotiate he might have gotten some $. She's irked by his vibe and doesn't like being strong armed.

I've seen this happen and it's really creepy.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[roscoenyc]

So the BMI guy has really been harassing the owner; I've not heard any of the conversations directly but the guy sounds like a true confidence dealer. If he had been willing to negotiate he might have gotten some $. She's irked by his vibe and doesn't like being strong armed.

I've seen this happen and it's really creepy.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Yep, and it's pretty much x 3 cause if the guy is on BMI's radar ASCAP and SESAC aren't far behind. So that "reasonable pay schedule" that is being "worked out" is about to go x 3.

[chris harris]

Note to business owners: If you comply from the beginning instead of sneaking around and trying to get away without paying, then this whole process is so much easier.

And, Chris, I understand your desire to keep this thread from getting out of hand.... but, how can we discuss the original poster's topic without mentioning some of this stuff?!?! The implication here is that these groups are ripping off business owners. And, that's just total bullshit. If anything, they're ripping off the artists... but, that's not an acceptable excuse for business owners to try and cheat. Small bars and restaurants who do not pay the licensing fees for the music that entertains their customers, aren't doing it as a way to take a stand for the rights of smaller artists any more than some college kid downloading "free" music is taking a stand against major labels ripping off artists. It's an excuse that plays well in groups like this. But, it's bullshit.

The reality is, any business owner that knows that they are required to pay, but doesn't, is avoiding paying because they think that they can get away with it. Oops! That doesn't always work out.

It's not EXTORTION. That's just fucking nonsense. They don't have to pay. They could just as easily choose to NOT PLAY that music. But, see.... that's the kicker. Then they're forced to realize that IT'S NOT FREE to create the kind of atmosphere that their customers will like to hang out it.

To the original poster:

I'm sorry that this is all going down and it's affecting your gig. But, ASCAP/BMI aren't to blame. The blame lies with the business owner who tried to get away with something as long as they could, and finally got caught. Think of how it affects other restaurant owners. If a restaurant down the street is owned by someone who's done their due diligence and played by the rules, it's not fair that they pay for what the other restaurant steals. Maybe it was another restauranteur who turned them in?

It sucks that it's an extra expense in running a business. But, the reality is, there's a long list of sucky expenses involved in running a business. And, I think that people are right to question the practices of ASCAP and BMI as it relates to how they treat the artists. But, I'm surprised that we're not all on (or at least near) the same page in expecting a business that lures customers with familiar music to have to compensate the people who create that music.

[chris harris]

If he had been willing to negotiate he might have gotten some $.

This sounds like petulance to me. Why would they "negotiate"?!?! The business owner doesn't like his "vibe" or his attitude. I'm sure that he doesn't like that she's been cheating his organization for as long as she could get away with it. None of this matters. Businesses have been doing this for years. And, now the organizations are cracking down. So, how they treat the artists aside, how exactly is this unfair to the businesses? If they don't know that they are supposed to pay for licensing for the music that brings in customers, then it's on them. It's their responsibility to understand the cost of doing business. If they do know, and just try to get away with it anyway, then they're trying to cheat the system.

Again, are you guys really making the case that $400 a year to license the music THAT YOUR CUSTOMERS WANT TO HEAR, is outrageous?!?! Give me a break!

People do this shit for the same reason that people pirate music or software. It's a way to save money. And, though it's illegal, it's very unlikely that they'll get caught. When you live by the whole, "it's only wrong if you get caught" mentality, and then when you get caught, you whine about it, you'll find plenty of support from people who live by the same mentality. None of this makes it right to do this. And, it doesn't make it wrong for these organizations to collect the money.

[ubertar]

What would be great is if this system got so out of control that lots of bar and restaurant owners started a "no cover tunes" policy, thereby creating many more venues for original music. If original music in these places became the norm, people would get used to it, and scenes could develop in all kinds of places where that just wouldn't have happened before. People would have no choice but to be more open to hearing stuff that's new. Of course, most of it would be very unoriginal and lame, but that's always going to be true.

[chris harris]

What would be great is if this system got so out of control that lots of bar and restaurant owners started a "no cover tunes" policy, thereby creating many more venues for original music. If original music in these places became the norm, people would get used to it, and scenes could develop in all kinds of places where that just wouldn't have happened before. People would have no choice but to be more open to hearing stuff that's new. Of course, most of it would be very unoriginal and lame, but that's always going to be true.

Totally!! In fact, the venue where I used to work does exactly this. They also require bands to sign an agreement before playing, stating that they agree to not play covers.

[ubertar]

What would be great is if this system got so out of control that lots of bar and restaurant owners started a "no cover tunes" policy, thereby creating many more venues for original music. If original music in these places became the norm, people would get used to it, and scenes could develop in all kinds of places where that just wouldn't have happened before. People would have no choice but to be more open to hearing stuff that's new. Of course, most of it would be very unoriginal and lame, but that's always going to be true.

Totally!! In fact, the venue where I used to work does exactly this. They also require bands to sign an agreement before playing, stating that they agree to not play covers.

Awesome. I hope that's the beginning of a trend. It's probably inevitable if the copyright enforcement folks continue to come down hard on people. Restaurants and bars mostly struggle to survive as it is. I'm not saying copyright owners don't have the right to get paid if their stuff is being used, but it's better for the culture overall if venue owners opt out and go for original stuff. By the time that trend is established enough for the BMIs and ASCAPS of the world to realize it, and change their policies to make covers more attractive to venue owners, the culture will (hopefully) have already changed, and people will expect to hear original music, and even seek it out. Maybe this is wishful thinking, but then again, I think there's a thirst for new music, since anything actually original rarely breaks through the mainstream media, if at all, anymore, and most people over a certain age (25?) aren't going to be scouring the internet to find stuff they like they haven't heard before.