ribbon or condenser oh's, boomy live room

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Danly
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ribbon or condenser oh's, boomy live room

Post by Danly » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:25 am

My live room is really weird. Very dead with a low ceiling (around 8 1/2, maybe 9 feet). The walls and ceilings are covered completely in 'drop ceiling tile'. There's a bad resonance of 125 hz. I put in wood floors and poly'd them which helped a lot. I also put a ton of paint coats everywhere to make the walls a little more reflective. One day I'll rip the walls down and put up sheetrock, but for now, it's a room made of acoustical drop ceiling tiles. I do have some 703 panels and a superchunk in 1 corner. The one nice thing is that the room is long and is 5 sided..

Anyway, I'm going to pick up either a pair of coles 4038's, or beyer mc 930's for overheads. Or maybe because my room is bassy I could compensate by getting a transformerless (brighter?) sdc like km 184's or oktavas or something.

What type of overheads would you use in a room that makes you sound like you have a head cold?
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Post by LazarusLong » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:04 am

I'd get the Coles or Beyerdynamics if I were you, then EQ as needed and keep working on the acoustics of the room. I think the brighter mics will just be bright and still have that 125hz bump.

I've found that in most music I'm mixing, 125Hz is generally not kept in my overheads anyway.
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Post by CedarSound » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:24 am

I know this sounds a bit strange for such a dead room, but the first thing I would do would be to add more panels. Broadband absorption suspended over the drumkit, with about a 2" gap between the panel and the ceiling.

Otherwise, whatever mics you use are going to get comb filtering in the overheads from the frequencies slapping back from the ceiling. I suspended panels from GIK over the kit (I think it was around 150 bucks for 3 panels) and took the ceiling right out of the overheads. Made a huge difference.

Not to derail your microphone question, but I think it will help.

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Post by Recycled_Brains » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:41 am

Not sure a fig. 8 mic would be my 1st choice in a room with low ceilings. Unless maybe you aren't using the more traditional OH configurations. Though, if you had a pair of 4038s, you could try Blumlein, and the null would be pointed straight up at the ceiling (right?).

Maybe the ticket is to try less obvious techniques... try "underheads" or FOK mic'ing, etc. as an alternative to overhead mic'ing.
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Danly
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Post by Danly » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:45 am

cool ideas. I should try putting those panels on the ceiling instead of the walls to see if I can take it out of the equation a little. I also like the idea of blumlein out in front of the kit.

I should experiment more myself. The only stereo pair I have is apex 460's, (actually tnc 1200's). I like them on vocals, but I think they make the cymbals sound horrible. But for the time being, I can play around more with different setups and polar patterns and placements.

I'll have some time this week. Maybe I'll take some pictures and post clips of varying setups.

leaning towards the coles at this point. I don't really think the room sounds that bad, but it is definitely a sound that is gonna be there.
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Post by ThePitz » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:46 am

I'm was in the same spot with my space. Cedar's right. Absorption above the drums made all the difference in the world. The panels cost me about sixty bucks to make and opened up my entire mic locker for use on the drums.

Also - for what its worth - a figure 8 OH with the front at the drums and the back to the absorption gets my favorite sound in my space now. Before the absorption - that setup sounded terrible.
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Post by beefy » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:33 am

Bass traps.

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Post by weatherbox » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:12 pm

After trapping the corners and putting something directly above the kit to absorb and/or break up the high frequency bounceback, I'd get a single 4038 and a pair of Shure KSM141s or 137s. The 141s are really good in funny rooms as they're pretty focused in their pickup, and are present, fast, and forward but not super bright. They've also got a three position high pass, the gentler setting of which was super useful for me when I was working at home. In my old space they were definitely my best sounding overhead mics, and I still use them a lot in my current studio. Those plus a 4038 in front of the kit filling out the low end is a really, really good setup.

I've been looking into a pair of 930s but would definitely suggest the 141s as something to look at. They also handle huge SPL and have multiple patterns - aside from drums (both close and roomy) they're great on piano, acoustic and electric guitars, vibraphones, etc...

I had some luck as well with the 141s in omni as room mics near the floor over reflective panels and a ribbon over the kit with the fig 8 oriented as flatteringly as possible. In small rooms I usually like fig8 ribbons as shoulder mics or front of kit mics where it's easier to place the nulls and rear pickups in pleasant ways.

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Post by Brett Siler » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:15 pm

Don't get a mic. The only thing that is gonna do it make you hear the bad room better. Spend $400 bucks and get some Ultratouch (even the 3" works really well) and some cheap fabric and cover your ceiling. You don't want a reflective ceiling. Floors and walls are cool reflective but definitely not a low ceiling. If you have any money left over make/get some bass traps and put them in the corners of your room.

I know its not what you were think but believe me it will seriously make a huge difference in the quality of your recordings. Way more than a Coles Beyer or a Neumann would.

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Post by Marc Alan Goodman » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:31 am

I'm with invalid. You'll never be dissatisfied if you choose either of those microphones. However if you want to have better sounding recordings right now I'd spend the money on treatment. And try to spend the extra time to make sure it will be portable so when you move it's not just thrown away!

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Post by losthighway » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:37 am

weatherbox wrote:After trapping the corners and putting something directly above the kit to absorb and/or break up the high frequency bounceback, I'd get a single 4038 and a pair of Shure KSM141s or 137s. The 141s are really good in funny rooms as they're pretty focused in their pickup, and are present, fast, and forward but not super bright. They've also got a three position high pass, the gentler setting of which was super useful for me when I was working at home. In my old space they were definitely my best sounding overhead mics,
+1. I have a pair and I put them up when I want to not worry about weirdness. They are almost scientific in their ability to get the job done without much coloration. I kind of think of them as my "no risk" overhead set up in XY. Might not be as visceral as LDC's in a spaced pair, or Glyn Johns, but they're always reliable.

As per the boomy room, like everyone said: Don't look for a mic to take the boom out of your room, look to take the boom out of your room first.

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Post by trodden » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:59 pm

InvalidInk wrote:Don't get a mic. The only thing that is gonna do it make you hear the bad room better. Spend $400 bucks and get some Ultratouch (even the 3" works really well) and some cheap fabric and cover your ceiling. You don't want a reflective ceiling. Floors and walls are cool reflective but definitely not a low ceiling. If you have any money left over make/get some bass traps and put them in the corners of your room.

I know its not what you were think but believe me it will seriously make a huge difference in the quality of your recordings. Way more than a Coles Beyer or a Neumann would.
yep... couple hundred dollars in rigid fiberglass, both "clouded" over the drum area and as bass traps and treatment in both control and live room made my drums sound better than 2300 in API pres.

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:47 am

InvalidInk wrote:Don't get a mic. The only thing that is gonna do it make you hear the bad room better. Spend $400 bucks and get some Ultratouch (even the 3" works really well) and some cheap fabric and cover your ceiling. You don't want a reflective ceiling. Floors and walls are cool reflective but definitely not a low ceiling. If you have any money left over make/get some bass traps and put them in the corners of your room.

I know its not what you were think but believe me it will seriously make a huge difference in the quality of your recordings. Way more than a Coles Beyer or a Neumann would.
+1.

No mic will solve your issues with the room acoustics.

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Post by inasilentway » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:24 am

this is a case where the usual message board wisdom doesn't necessarily help. the room is way too dead, and a lot of the experiments with adding treatment have led to the conclusion that things sound better without it. the #1 thing that made the room sound better was when one of the walls had to be replaced with sheetrock and the room livened up considerably.

without hearing the room, one's natural instinct is to recommend treatment. but the studio does not have a ton of microphones and, though it will surely give sensitive posters heart palpitations to hear it, spending money on a microphone is the smart thing to do.

so the question ends up being more like "say you're in the 70s engineering a Fleetwood Mac b-side and no matter how hard you explain to the producer that dead rooms are a bummer, he wants to record the drums in one. what mics do you put on Mick's kit?"
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Post by calaverasgrandes » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:01 pm

some of the best records ever were recorded in boomy dead rooms. Look at a photo of any studio from the 60's or 70's. What is that funny stuff all over the walls in the live room? ACOUSTIC TILE?!
I guess that is the reason live rooms tend to have wood walls when they can afford it.
I would certainly look into putting some panels over the kit if you can fit them.
If you have the scratch for 2 coles you can certainly afford some acoustic panels.
There is also the whole idea that pretty much everything sounds better highpassed anyway.
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