Changing payment agreement mid-project

[Gentleman Jim]

@?,*???&? wrote:

There are local studios (and big ones with a history) turning out $350 album mixes complete with mastering.

...it's not that I can't compete- it's more like- "Who would want to?" I can't pay my bills at that rate.

Well, it's a matter of how much time is put into the mix, isn't it? While you may not like to work in a manner where you do a somewhat cookie cutter mix of an entire album, that could be what a band with a somewhat cookie cutter sound is looking for.

Or think about it as a gamble: A band could hire you to mix 10 songs for $3000 and you would spend 12-15 hours per song, (as per your rates page), or they could go to this other studio and try the $350 mix for the 10 songs. If there's anything that's really out of line they can always go back and remix slower. But some bands don't require 12-15 hour mixes per song.

You charge $400 for a 12 hour block. They probably need do the whole album in 8-10 hours to make the business model work. It's not that far apart, really.

[Gentleman Jim]

@?,*???&? wrote:

It's more hilarious when you break it down and tell the band that their recording is going to cost $5800.00 for a 6-song E.P. where mastering and manufacturing rates are fixed expenses.

You never learned anything from Ron Popeil, did you? You never tell them it costs $119.97, you tell them "Just three easy payments of $39.99!"

But seriously. I know I've had the same conversation with grown men, and it has amazed me as well that they can't put together a simple column of figures and sum them.

Although I wouldn't necessarily call it hilarious. If you think people finding out that their budget is way off is hilarious, I have great news: We're kind of in a golden age for the sitcom. Parks and Recreation, Modern Family, How I Met Your Mother, 30 Rock... the list goes on and on. And I haven't mentioned the one-two punch of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report every Monday through Thursday. You could stand to turn the tv on every once in a while. There are funnier things than depressed bassists realizing their dreams are going to be deferred for another six months.

[@?,*???&?]

@?,*???&? wrote:

It's more hilarious when you break it down and tell the band that their recording is going to cost $5800.00 for a 6-song E.P. where mastering and manufacturing rates are fixed expenses.

You never learned anything from Ron Popeil, did you? You never tell them it costs $119.97, you tell them "Just three easy payments of $39.99!"

Oh God, expecting a band to make payments is insane too! lol

[terryb]

if you've really got 80 hours in for a measly $25 a song, tell em to pay more or fuck off.
you cannot let people take advantage of you. if they threaten anything, give them a mix of what they've finished so far.
you didn't sign a contract did you?
move on

[Gentleman Jim]

@?,*???&? wrote:

Oh God, expecting a band to make payments is insane too! lol

I didn't mean that you the recording engineer put them on a finance plan. I meant that they pay for the recording as they go, then they pay for the graphic artist and photographer, then they pay for the mastering, then they pay for the pressing, etc.

And I wasn't being serious. I'm all in favor of people actually knowing what something costs and putting a budget together before they pull the trigger.

[cgarges]

I'm amazed at the number of people who have studio experience and still ask me what it's gonna cost or how long it's gonna take to make their record. Seriously? How about, "All the money you're prepared to spend and probably a little more?" But no one wants to hear that-- they want a solid number.

I'm with you, Jim. It's amazing to me how many people can't do the math. You want to take ten days to make the record? Okay, at a $400/day studio, that's gonna cost you 4 grand for the recording. Want to do it for closer to $2000? Okay, that's gonna get you five days. Do it in five days. Figure out how many songs you want to do and divide that to come up with some kind of schedule. It's not THAT hard to figure out.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[@?,*???&?]

I'm with you, Jim. It's amazing to me how many people can't do the math. You want to take ten days to make the record? Okay, at a $400/day studio, that's gonna cost you 4 grand for the recording. Want to do it for closer to $2000? Okay, that's gonna get you five days. Do it in five days. Figure out how many songs you want to do and divide that to come up with some kind of schedule. It's not THAT hard to figure out.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Uh, Chris? That's why there's a food chain in the industry. The problem is, the people who can't do the math are now in control and that's why the industry has been turned on it's head...

[@?,*???&?]

Speaking of food chain in the industry here, I just found out an artist I was trying to book put a horribly performed and horribly recorded demo on their myspace page as I was circulating them to various high-end venues for booking.

Holy shit. You should see the e-mail I just received from the Talent Buyer at one such place.
The artist just placed ME in jeopardy through doing so and did not let me know she would be doing something so stupid. She made claims of "Well, I just posted it for a few people. You know, niche audience."

WTF?

More like, I just posted it because I don't want to succeed in this industry...

Do reputations in this day and age matter? They used to, but it looks like we've gone well past that.

[@?,*???&?]

More like, I just posted it because I don't want to succeed in this industry...

Do reputations in this day and age matter? They used to, but it looks like we've gone well past that.

And uh, don't even think about it.

[@?,*???&?]

The common thread with the last few posts with the original theme is that at the core, both the engineer working for well below standard wages and the artist posting unfinished, half-baked demos are desperate for something. Possibly the same thing.

There was a question in the Musician/Engineer Survey about this:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... 8&i=366678

[cale w]

...both the engineer working for well below standard wages and the artist posting unfinished, half-baked demos are desperate for something. Possibly the same thing.

I don't see the correlation there at all. Working for cheap to break in your skills with friends is a common, legitimate occurrence among self-employed trades-people. The "artist posting unfinished, half-baked demos" probably just doesn't know any better. So I don't see what any part of that rant had to do with this thread.

Anyway, thanks everyone for their thoughts and advice! Since emailing the band leader about renegotiating pay three days ago, I haven't heard a peep from him. Figures. But, I spent the day recording upright bass and Rhodes for a different project, good times!

[cgarges]

Do reputations in this day and age matter? They used to, but it looks like we've gone well past that.

It's got nothing to do with this day and age. People have always done stupid shit like sending copies of their rough mixes to radio stations and whtnot. That's why a bunch of the older guys I know put tones in the middle of their roughs. That's nothing new.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[LazarusLong]

if you've really got 80 hours in for a measly $25 a song, tell em to pay more or fuck off.
you cannot let people take advantage of you. if they threaten anything, give them a mix of what they've finished so far.
you didn't sign a contract did you?
move on

Unless you're in a huge market, these guys probably already know / soon will know every other band around you. If you hook them up (and make them damned aware of the hookup), they'll sing your praises. This leads to more work. Work that comes AFTER you've learned how to set your rates. Just sayin'.

[Artifex]

Problem with that is the hookup goes like this: " Yeah we know this dude, does ok work but is cheap as shit!" Then you've got all the wrong kinds of clients looking for the cheap deal to take advantage.

People will value you more and give you more respect if you value your time and skills properly.

[LazarusLong]

Problem with that is the hookup goes like this: " Yeah we know this dude, does ok work but is cheap as shit!" Then you've got all the wrong kinds of clients looking for the cheap deal to take advantage.

People will value you more and give you more respect if you value your time and skills properly.

Be honest with him and explain how you're going to do the job still and do it right, but if he'd be willing to tell his friends about you - ask him to not share your heinously low rate - and hopefully you can work something out where you will, in effect, make more money from him and he understands what kind of a deal you're giving him.

Hopefully this is at least someone you can trust enough to honor your request. Even be sure to tell him that you're trusting him so he gets it. Often times it seems like problems arise from miscommunication, not from under-handedness.[/quote]