Recording a bluegrass band, need help.

[willhouk]

Hello. First I want to say thank you to everyone who posts on this site, you guys have given me a ton of knowledge.

I could use some help though. I am going to record a friends bluegrass band, and I have a limited set up. Here is my gear:
AT 3035
Shure Beta 52
SM57
SM58
an AT drum mic kit with 2 snare/tom mics and 2 tom/kick mics
(I don't have them with me and I forget their model number)
Echo Gina (2 inputs)
Yamaha MG 102C mixer
Sonar Home Studio 6

The band is 2 acoustic guitars, 1 mandolin, 1 upright bass, and vocals.

I am thinking of 2 different techniques and I would like some advice. The first technique would be to mic the whole band with the condenser mic, and put a Beta 52 on the bass.

The other option would be to record each instrument individually to a click track for more isolation.

Does anyone have any suggestions, am I on the right track? Maybe I should try both option since they are a local band, and I am doing this for free, we both have the time. Thanks.

[JGriffin]

The last bluegrass (well, old-timey) band I recorded, I took this approach: I arranged them more or less in a circle with a center mic, but also close-miked everyone and put up small gobos. No click. The mix ended up pretty nice. I wound up using a fair amount of the close mics. If I'd had them in a tighter circle I could probably have used more of the room mic. I think bluegrass bands tend to "mix" themselves so lots of isolation might not be the best way to capture what they're about.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

The other option would be to record each instrument individually to a click track for more isolation.

christ on a crutch! don't do this. it will be much more work, sound much worse, and the musicians will probably look at you funny if you even suggest it.

i'd try setting them up in a semi circle, right next to each other, arranged in the way you want to hear it in stereo, i.e. vocalist and bassist in the middle, acoustic and mandolin on the sides. close mic everything, make extra extra sure you've got a useable vocal sound before you do anything else, put a couple mics back a bit in the room to capture the whole ensemble, check for phase, sit back and let 'em play.

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

I recorded part of and fully mixed "The Crow" by Steve Martin last year. Let me see if I can help you out.

Most of the issues I had with his album was too many engineers across the songs, and not a lot of care taken in PLACING THE MICS. This made the mix longer to finish, more than anything else. In one instance a really expensive mic was placed with the BACK SIDE facing the singer, so that was an interesting challenge to resolve, as there was more room than singer in the recording.

Ok, let's look at your setup :

You have the following :

Mics :
1x AT 3035
1x Shure Beta 52
1x SM57
1x SM58
an AT drum mic kit with 2 snare/tom mics and 2 tom/kick mics (4 mics here)
=
8 mics total, correct?

Your weak spot is the 2 input channels only. the Echo Gina has only 2 inputs? You really could use some more, if possible and within your budget (if any). Otherwise you'll do a simple Stereo recording, and voila, you'll be done.

HINT:

MOST bluegrass bands like to be recorded LIVE, all together. They don't do so well recording one at a time (I know... been there, done that, too much editing later on)

So, if you ONLY have a Stereo input, then you can be pre-mixing with your
Yamaha MG 102C mixer going to the Gina 2 inputs (L+R) via the +4 outputs of the mixer. (+4 = hotter levels to the Gina card,less hiss from the mixer)
And feed a Stereo mix (with NO effects) into your Sonar DAW.

"The band is 2 acoustic guitars, 1 mandolin, 1 upright bass, and vocals."

Imagine a semi circle, which is facing your AT 3035 microphone, which is at chest height, and about 6 feet from everyone in the group.

I would start by placing the bass in the middle, the two ac gtrs to each side of the Bass, the mandolin to the left edge, or right edge.

Who sings? Everyone? One person? Two? Just make sure the singers are at approximately the same distance from your main AT 3035 microphone.

I would mic them as follows:

CH 1 AT 3035 used as a ROOM Mic. This will be the MOST IMPORTANT MIC. you should listen to this mic first, while the band rehearses, until you find the best overall sound of all the band playing together, including singing.

Sometimes, for different songs, you might have to change the positions of the players, to accentuate the singer / lead instrument. Never be afraid of changing musician positions. It will keep the record interesting too.

Once you have this, you can start adding a mic to the LEAST LOUD instrument, and add it into your already good one mic blend. My first guess is that the Mandolin will be the least loud, so I would put your next best mic close to the Mandolin.

So CH 2 becomes the SOFTEST instrument / voice, and is mixed into the Stereo mix.

Then if you still need another mic or two to add definition to soft / weak instruments, you can use CH3 and 4 for this purpose. If you have two singers and one is loud enough, while the other is too soft, then the soft singer can get the SM58 mic, and try to match the levels when the two singers are singing harmony together.

I would not use more than the 4 mics in this setup, so you avoid PHASE cancellation and other phase issues.

Make sure to add one mic at a time and LISTEN TO THE RESULTS. Move people around, until you get a good overall sound.

Once you're ready to record, record AT LEAST three or four takes, so you can splice together a master take in case there are any performance flubs on the better take.

Do not spend too much time between takes, just go for it and have the band play the same song until you all feel you have one great take. This is how Steve's record was done. After you have the "Master" take, move on to the next song. Tune instruments between EACH and EVERY take, to ensure you can edit them later on.

Do not use a click. If they are good, they will play the songs at a close enough BPM to edit together a usable master without worrying about click bleed.

Do NOT give them headphones, Let the band mix themselves in the room (this is absolutely the best way to get the blend right.)

Only you use headphones only to monitor the recording, so as to not get distortion or other issues into your DAW.

Cheers

[willhouk]

Thanks for the replies.
I was thinking that it would be best to record them live, so thanks for confirming that. Noeqplease, that was a very thorough response, I like what you had to say. I think I'll go to a few of their practices to get a feel for their "sound" I think that might save us some time in the studio setting up.

I know 2 inputs is not much, I am just making do with what I have. My plan is to get the Echo Audiofire Pre8 so I will have 8 more channels to record with. I have heard a lot of good stuff about Echo converters. Thanks again guys.

[lionaudio]

i live in Owensboro, Ky. The bluegrass capital of the world! And bluegrass should always be recorded live. The interplay between the musicians is what makes it unique. I would only use one mic. They should be accustomed to playing and stepping forward when they are playing their lead in the song. So one mic is really all you need. I would suggest renting a nice ribbon as your condenser could possibly capture some very unpleasant highs especially from a mandolin. If renting is not an option, your condenser will work, but I would definitely do some minor eq after the fact. If the musicians are really good, bluegrass can be some of the most rewarding music to record, just sitting in awe of their technique. So enjoy!

[kevin206]

I used to run live sound for a bluegrass "big band". There would be a row of musicians in the back with FIVE singers in the frontline. I HAD to use individual mics in that situation. I always had them sounding good.
However, the best live sound I heard from a bluegrass band (that I was doing sound for) was in a carpeted conference hall with 4 musician/singers in a semi-circle with 1 AT 4033 mounted on a stand averaging chin high. The guys would step up to the mic for singing and solos then step back to about 2 feet away. Sound and performance was fantastic!
As has been said, record live and make a few passes and listen later for the 'keeper' take.
Has it been suggested to record and instrument take then overdub vocals? That could give you a lot of mixing flexibility.

[willhouk]

Great suggestions kevin206/lionaudio. I can't think of a place to rent a mic near where I live. That might be an option in Reno, which is about 30 miles north of me (Carson City NV).

While I have your guys input available, I have a related question. After I upgrade my inputs I was thinking of 2 options for better equipment. 1) Buy a UAD2 Solo. 2) Buy a preamp like a Grace m101 or True Systems P Solo (Ronan did a review of that pre). Maybe a nicer condenser mic would be a good option. The UAD gives me more mixing options, but I like the idea of real, actual equipment. As opposed to computer hardware that needs to be upgrade. What do you guys think?

[Russian Recording]

Bluegrass is traditionally recorded live with a single stereo mic. Or at least I like to think it is.

I've recorded several bands this way.

You need good acoustics. And you need a nice stereo mic or stereo pair. and nice preamps. And hopefully a nice EQ and subtle compressor. most of those things help. But it's never gonna sound good without a good band.

Spend just as much time placing the musicians around the mic and in the room as you would setting up 10 mics. It will sound better, more natural and you will get much better performances. Musicians get freaked out when there are a bunch of mics pointing at holes in their instruments.

Also, with all acoustic instruements, the musicians will move around. you're not going to stop them from doing it, and if you ask them not to move, they're just gonna get self conscious and lose focus.

So...

I used a Calrec Soundfield MKIV stereo mic. Set to ORTF. Preamps are built into the system. Into an Avedis E27 EQ and a a pair of Chandler Germanium Compressors.

Spent about 3 hours getting the balance right in the room/around the mic. Then they tracked 14 or so songs in about 6 hours.

some 2 track editing and it was done.

sounded awesome.

mike

[Nick Sevilla]

Great suggestions kevin206/lionaudio. I can't think of a place to rent a mic near where I live. That might be an option in Reno, which is about 30 miles north of me (Carson City NV).

While I have your guys input available, I have a related question. After I upgrade my inputs I was thinking of 2 options for better equipment. 1) Buy a UAD2 Solo. 2) Buy a preamp like a Grace m101 or True Systems P Solo (Ronan did a review of that pre). Maybe a nicer condenser mic would be a good option. The UAD gives me more mixing options, but I like the idea of real, actual equipment. As opposed to computer hardware that needs to be upgrade. What do you guys think?

Get better mics and / or mic preamplifiers, once you've chosen your multitrack AD converter.

Even though the UAD products are very very good, if you get the mic position right, and have a good mic pre with low self noise, you'll find yourself using less EQ to get your sounds. Mic position and choice is the no.1 way to get the right sound.

I like to use two to four mics to get the sound of certain instruments, most of them in fact, using a blend of the mics to "EQ" the signal into a mono input, this way minimizing the amount of EQ in mixing to be used. I also try to use EQ to get rid of frequencies the instrument does not need, rather than boosting frequencies, whenever possible.

Cheers

[newholland]

i've done a lotta work with bluegrass guys-- hard work!

i've managed to get solid recordings always live with an LDC around mid chest height- tilted back a scoch. that performs more or less as a vocal mic/ ensemble mic-- but rolled off axis a bit, it'll tame the scree of a mandolin or a banjo, and cut some of the rankle of a big martin box. then typically, i'll mix in something like a 451 about a foot lower angled north a bit. you could use a 57 for that. that functions largely as a 'solo' mic-- so when they step to for a break-- there's something dead nuts on the soloist.

i tried a lotta configurations, and this seemed to work the best. the mono-ness of it never really seems to phase the guys used to listening to the likes of old recordings.. and the openness is pretty addictive if mixed well. if you're DEAD set on a stereo recording- you can surely use a stereo pair of each.. but i kinda always found it impertinent.

NOW.. this is, mind you, the inherently conservative mindset of a traditional bluegrasser. if you're talking alison krauss... well... this won't work because you can't turn it into pop music-- but a good band with good interaction can make a single 57 recording sound great..

[suppositron]

Even though this isn't my thread I gotta give a hand to noeqplease for his lengthy and in-depth contribution. I love to see that kind of generosity. Not to downplay anyone else's response, ofcourse.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

newholland gets points too for using both 'scree' and 'rankle'.

[willhouk]

Even though this isn't my thread I gotta give a hand to noeqplease for his lengthy and in-depth contribution. I love to see that kind of generosity. Not to downplay anyone else's response, ofcourse.

x2

And I apologize for getting off topic with asking a question about mic pres. I'm a newb and I forgot that people like threads to stay on topic. I forgot.

[erroneous]

not to hijack this, but a friend played me The Crow last night. I was really impressed by how gorgeous the sound was. Nice job Noeqplease!