korg microSampler

[tdbajus]

You know, I have been having a blast with mine, but I've run up against something that is really starting to annoy me- the sample editor/librarian software.

I have been trying to make some loops out of a fairly complex organ tone. What I have done is take about 3 seconds of my Elka OMB5's organ sound and split it in half at a zero crossing.

I then take the front half and the back half, flip them so that the edit (which i did on a zero) is on the outside. I then line up the clips so they are overlapping a second or so, line them up so they are in phase, and crossfade.

What I wind up with should be a loop that is about a two seconds long, where the first and last sample are not just starting on a zero crossing, but were formerly right next to each other, so there should be no popping. When I loop the rendered sample in Reaper, everything seems fine.

When I import it into the microSampler, there is an annoying pop. The view in the sample editor is lousy, but if I try to cheat, and trim the sample a bit, to cut out a bad sample, it still pops.

I spent 6 hours trying out various permutations, and I have found nothing that will work consistently. I am also sampling every single key on the Elka, and editing each one so that I can preserve the built in speed of the leslie simulator, so I'm wondering where my math/logic/nerd mojo is going wrong.

Oddly, I did the same thing with a few sounds on my AceTone, and had no problem at all. It's very strange.

Any thoughts? My first one is that Korg ought to have a selection tool that only grabs the zero crossovers (is there an official name for those?). A crossfade tool would be nice too.

I mean, how hard can it be to make something that makes a loop without popping?

[kslight]

I don't own one so I don't know what the editor is capable of..but if it doesn't do what you want easily it makes more sense to use PT or something like that.

The reason you get pops is because youneed a slight fade in the front of the sample, like an attack envelope. I would think that if you didn't want to reedit every single sample that you could just use the ADSR on the Korg to achieve the same effect.

It also sounds like you might be making the sampling process overcomplicated? Pops will also occur when you edit in the middle of a sample and don't use fades.
This could also happenif your loop points aren't quite right.

[tdbajus]

Maybe I didn't explain this very well. I'll try to be more precise.


The loops I have made:

1) begin and end on a zero crossing.

2)begin and end on a contiguous curve, the very last sample of the loop is the formerly preceding sample of the beginning of the loop.

in other words, if this is the original sample:

0123456789


I have chopped the sample in half where the wave crosses the zero:

01234 56789


and flipped them:

56789 01234

and then crossfaded from one to the other:

56xxx34


I would suspect that, when looped, the playback would be (assuming there is no pop in the crossfade.:

56xxx3456xxx3456xxx3456xxx3456xxx3456xxx3456xxx3456xxx34.....


In reaper, when I reimport this new, looped wav, it loops without popping. This could be, though, that Reaper is an intelligently made piece of software that assumes that when you loop something, most people prefer not to have a stupid, annoying pop at the loop point. Call them psychic.


Does make it clearer? Where the edit happens shouldn't matter, because the beginning and ending of the loop are contiguous samples. I did, however, take great care in making sure all loops started on a zero crossing.

Is there some simple, blatantly obvious thing that I am missing here? Please- I am used to feeling stupid. Don't worry about my feelings.

[inasilentway]

Is there some simple, blatantly obvious thing that I am missing here? Please- I am used to feeling stupid. Don't worry about my feelings.

Well, since it is a brand-new piece of gear, the most obvious thing to do would be to give Korg customer support a try first, as this is exactly the sort of thing they're here to help with.

[austingreen]

I am curious about this. I recently acquired an old Boss Dr. Sample SP202 that pops almost every time at the beginning or end of samples, making looping unusable, even after truncating. Even when not looping and just playing the samples it pops half the time. I have friend who has a 202, 303, 404, and I think a 555 and they all pop from time to time. He thought it was a grounding issue but my 202 still pops with batteries. Why would a new Korg or Roland sampler do this? Do all samplers suffer from this?

How is it my Looper pedals, Boss RC-20 and EHX 2880, "sample" and loop seamlessly with no regard to any kind of zero crossing points?

[tdbajus]

I guess I should also point out that this has only happened when I loop the Elka, which is dense, thick, and pretty random.

My Acetone, which is pretty sinusoidal, got chopped up nice and easy.

[SoulOfJonas]

i also haven't used that piece of gear specifically, but i have been chopping up a good bit of samples lately and using em with my new MPC. Sounds to me like you're doing everything right. It may be a faulty unit or design flaw.

The only other thing I'd suggest trying is adding really short, almost "unnecessary", fades to the head and tail of your loop(s) to make sure they start and end on zeros. In whatever DAW you use, zoom in as much as possible and drop in the tightest fades allowed. In Pro Tools, I think the minimum is 4 samples long. I've done this with loops that give me pops on my MPC and it works most of the time. If that still doesn't work, then I just live with it. Some of my favorite music created with samplers has pops, clicks and crackle all over it

-JV

[tdbajus]

If that still doesn't work, then I just live with it. Some of my favorite music created with samplers has pops, clicks and crackle all over it

-JV

Eh. I paid $500 so I could sample my clunky organs and analog drum machines. I really don't think in 2010 I should pay for a sampler that doesn't work. It's not like I am pushing any new boundaries here- I'm justing using the sampler pretty much for what it is designed for- playing back loops. I figured on using this thing as a hitech/lotech mellowtron.

I ain't no Terminator X/Hank Shockley.

[edit]

seriously, though- how can it be so hard to make a fucking loop? How many multitrack programs are there that can not fucking edit audio?

Let's see:

Logic- Isn't sample accurate. This is, for those who do not know, FUCKING RETARDED. It's like having a word processor that won't let you correct spelling.

Live- Love it, works great, tons of fun, as long you want to time warp instead of edit. Sometimes I get sick of its trying to jam square pegs into round holes all the time.

Reaper- Just started using it- seems like it should edit well, looks like it edits well. Make a loop, sounds fine in its own timeline. Bring it into anything else- be it the korg microSampler or its worthless piece of shit editing software, Live, or Logic, and the loop pops. Is Reaper right, and everything else wrong?

Why is it taking my 12 damned hours to do something, when I know exactly what I want to do and how I want to do it? WTF?

[Knights Who Say Neve]

Hmm... check the loop point assignments in the korg...perhaps it not looping the sample from 0 to end? If it's like the korg esx it has a "sustain" loop that only loops part of the sample by default.

[tdbajus]

well, I have found a work around that seems to work OK- i make a loop as described above, but extend the end of it, so instead of:

56xxx34

I have:

56xxx345

So, i then import into the librarian software, and trim off the extra bit.


Seems like this process should be a lot easier, though.

[iamthecosmos]

So is this Microsampler any good? I have Yamaha VSS-30 I use for quick and dirty samples, but this thing looks like my Yamaha if it was a superhero.

[tdbajus]

So is this Microsampler any good? I have Yamaha VSS-30 I use for quick and dirty samples, but this thing looks like my Yamaha if it was a superhero.

For drum machines, and my other analog organs, it worked great. I'm having a tough time with the Elka, because the wave never really repeats- I sampled every key on my aceton to the MS in about 20 minutes. It's great whit drum loops too, as long as you have something that repeats. So, for quick and dirty, it actually kind of rules.

Problems:

1) doesn't use an SD card for memory, so there is no memory expansion. I think this is kind of busted, actually. Maybe they'll change it on the MS2.

2) The memory (supposed to be a half hour or so) is evenly alloted to each of the 8 banks. So you can't have one giant bank that uses all of the memory, with each key having a 5 minute sample. I have been using the sampler mode to sample each individual key, which mean that I can fit about a 2.5-3 second sample on every key for 3 octaves, which eats up about 70-75% of the bank's memory. You could have one massive sample per bank use up all the memory, if you wanted.

3)Changing from bank to bank is reasonably fast, though a little awkward at first- the multifunction dials would feel a little better to me if they were up and down buttons, though I think this might just be a matter of opinion.

Now that I have figured out how to get complex loops on there without popping, i'll be psyched that I bought it. I am truly a rotten keyboard played who keeps winding up with cool, if somewhat battered and heavy, analog keyboards. This thing will give me a chance to lay down that cool little keyboard part overdub over the bridge without having to drag a mountain of crap with me.

I wish I knew how to program- their sample editor is really pretty basic, and if you are recording loops, is fairly easy to use, but I mean, how hard would it be to make a crossfade tool for it?

[iamthecosmos]

Well that sounds pretty cool. I've got a Novation Bass Station that I wanted to sample into it but I'm not sure it will have enough sample time. One for the back burner maybe, for when I've got cash to spare for inspiring but crazy instruments.