Mixing Bass

[riantide]

Hey guys! I'm mixing a record right now that was tracked in several different studios and some of the bass sounds are kickass and really easy to place in a mix, while others are proving a little more difficult. I'll do the best job I can describing the problem:

When I listen to the records the band gave me to reference (mainly Spoon "Gimmee Fiction" and Phantom Planet "S/T") I can point to exactly where the bass is in the mix, it is a distinct instrument that occupies a very specific space. The bass on the track I'm struggling with just sort of bleeds all over the bottom of the mix and is very indistinct.

Things I've tried:
-so far I've had a lot of luck double-bussing, on one buss I'll focus on low end and on the other I'll distort it and dial in the midrange and top end I want. On the clean bus I'll boost or cut somewhere around 100 (depending on what it needs down there) and then run a HPF at like 20 or 30 to get rid of any rumble. On the dirty bus I'll typically run the HPF a little higher (maybe 40) and boost at 550 (for growl) and 8k (for pick/fret/string noise and some exciting stuff up top)


Things I haven't tried:
-This weekend I'm thinking about re-amping the bass and running it back through the signal chain I would have used if I were tracking it. I've never tried re-amping for this specific purpose and I know the only way to find out how effective it will be is to do it, so we'll just see.

Any other ideas? I'm looking for a bass sound that is dirty and has some teeth, but that has controlled, tight low end. Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

[mjau]

FWIW, I've gotten myself into trouble with bass when double-bussing and/or dividing the signal - lots of phase stuff that I wasn't happy with. I've lately been hi-passing bass more than I used to think I "should" - often closer to 100hz than 40hz, depending on what else is going on (especially with the kick). That's helped me place bass much better in a mix.

[riantide]

Yeah, I was wondering how many phase problems I was introducing with the double-bussing, but so far it has only made it clearer, just not quite clear enough. I'll mess around with the HPF, thanks for the suggestion!

[thethingwiththestuff]

Those are good ideas, but what about compression? Most basses you hear are compressed to hell.

Instead of splitting into two tracks, try first compressing in a macro sense, evening out large differences in volume with a slow-ish attack, slow release, low threshold, and like a 4-8:1 ratio. If there's a frequency sticking out, try EQing it our pre and post compression and compare. Then you might try a quick, attacky compressor to shape the tone and help it snap. You may excite the 8k "fun stuff" just by compressing this way. Try the quick compressor before the slow one too, EQ last, EQ first, etc... every combination sounds different.

OR, you can split it into two tracks, where I'd probably say HP closer to 40, and roll of everything above 600 maybe? The high one can go from 4-500hz all the way up. Compress each of these differently, get a tight full bottom and a crunchy top together.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

If it's making it phasey just make sure you're using the same delay path. Put the same plugins on each one and just bypass the ones you're not using on each. In the OTB world that problem doesn't even exist, but it can be subtle ITB so it's worth doing everything to keep an eye on it.

The other issue is that once the highs have been rolled off with bass guitar it can be hard to make it audible. A lot of bass players want their sound to be SUPER bassy so they'll roll the tone all the way off on the guitar. What that means is that it's almost impossible to make it sound like an instrument. Using a bus to get some dirt on it is the best idea in this case as it can add a lot of upper harmonics based on the existing frequencies. I love Massey's Tape Head for this, but as of now I think it's RTAS only.

And one last thing to try is high pass the hell out of the bass! You don't need all that super bottom. Once you clear a lot of it out (more than you think you should) you can crank the bass up without blowing the whole mix. Then roll it back to taste.

[creeping justin]

recently, i've had some luck with fairly heavy compression combined with some type of distortion/saturation and hi-passing at 80Hz. The hi-pass eliminates some of that low end "bloom" and the distortion adds the harmonic content to make it stand out. Also, sometimes some transient shaping after the comp/dist/eq has helped add back in some attack. i use Stillwell's Transient Monster.

Also, what about copying in one of the bass tracks that sounds good and seeing how close you can get to recreating it? Obviously, this only makes sense if the song calls for a similar bass sound.

[KennyLusk]

-This weekend I'm thinking about re-amping the bass and running it back through the signal chain I would have used if I were tracking it. I've never tried re-amping for this specific purpose and I know the only way to find out how effective it will be is to do it, so we'll just see.

Maybe it's just me but I'm having a hard time figuring out on this if you're actually going to reamp to an amp with a mic in front of it.

To me, if a bass isn't standing out in the mix and compression doesn't help give it punch and bring it forward, or using an ADT plug doesn't move it out of the way of everything else, then mic'ing an amp is next. Mic'ing an amp gives it a little air and some useable mids.

I'm also in alignment with Marc's assertion that rolling off the high's on a bass during recording can sabotage you later. Bass guitar gives me a hard time too so I feel for ya. This is one of the reasons I recently decided to break down and buy a better bass for tracking with.

[losthighway]

Yeah, I double the reamp idea. I have gotten interesting results doing totally counter-intuitive things like reamping a mic signal from the bass when I didn't have a DI and putting it through a really mediocre PA. It just brought back all that 'woody' kind of mid tone that makes a bass an actual voice instead of thunder. I've also found that mics with fairly modest low bass response, or even roll off (SM7, RE20) sound less impressive soloed but work better in the mix.

[ott0bot]

Great suggestions so far. The high pass filter is on the best ways to get bass out of the mush. I also tend to do some narrow cuts in the frequencies that seem most prominent in the guitars to make some room. Re-amping and blending is also an excelent method for geting a "fresh" bass sound to work with. The Massey Tape head does wonders too.

My favorite thing lately is to run the bass out of the daw into the line input of a nice preamp with dual gain staging. Then I can crank the gain and make the signal break up on some of the louder parts. I've been using a UA 710 for this, with it 100% on the tube side. Then I'll run it through a compresser for some medium attack slow release compression at around a 2:1 or so ratio. This really helps to smooth it out, and you can speed up the release in small steps to find where it works best. You can also mult the send to the compressor and blend the overdriven track with the compression.

Lately I've been experimenting with a fair amount of panning almost 80-90% to one side with the bass. Then you can have it at a lower volume and it still stands out. Something I really liked about the Zombies Oddessy and Oracle record. Check out "I Want Her She Wants Me" ....that song is almost all bass and mostly panned and it sounds fantastic. Obviously this doesn't work for everything.

[dsw]

I like the Waves C4 multiband compressor on bass. You can use it like EQ.

[riantide]

Wow, great stuff, guys!

First off, I should have mentioned in my original post that I am indeed compressing the hell out of both busses; I'm a compression junkie and have never met a bass I didn't compress to some degree.

I'll definitely experiment with adjusting the HPF, I'm always nervous about setting it too high in fear that it may obliterate the fundamentals, but I suppose I can always use a softer curve.

I'm really excited to try the re-amping, I'll probably use a mic and a DI since I tend to have good luck with that. It'll be the first time I've re-amped a mic'd signal, but I see no reason why it won't work and I'm glad to hear that some of you have had some success with that.

I'm also in the habit of dipping the bass ever so slightly at whatever frequency I'm boosting in the kick (if there's a boost there at all), and while that has been helping the bass stay out of the way of the kick drum, it's still mud-city for the rest of the mix.

These are amazing suggestions and I'd love if you could keep 'em coming, lord knows this isn't going to be the last time I struggle with the bass in a rock mix and I could use a few more tricks up my sleeve.

Thanks so much!

[kingtoad]

Another old classic that can work for "big" bass sounds is to put in a high pass filter somewhere between 50-120hz and simultaneously boost at that frequency. It can make things sound tight but powerful in the right circumstances.

I do think bass is one of the harder standard rock things to "fix" really well though. A well tracked bass played well (with the right amount of compression, and that's frequently a lot in my experience) just sits without having to do too much.

[kinger]

Another old classic that can work for "big" bass sounds is to put in a high pass filter somewhere between 50-120hz and simultaneously boost at that frequency. It can make things sound tight but powerful in the right circumstances.

I often do a "push-pull" EQ like this on bass, as well. Two narrow band EQs, one boosting and one cutting, sitting at almost the same frequency (for me, they're usually down around 100-120 Hz). It can really add some punch while clearing up some mud.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

Another old classic that can work for "big" bass sounds is to put in a high pass filter somewhere between 50-120hz and simultaneously boost at that frequency. It can make things sound tight but powerful in the right circumstances.

I often do a "push-pull" EQ like this on bass, as well. Two narrow band EQs, one boosting and one cutting, sitting at almost the same frequency (for me, they're usually down around 100-120 Hz). It can really add some punch while clearing up some mud.

Yup. Resonant high pass filters rule. You either have to be a synth dude or in the box though. As far as pro outboard gear they're rare as hens teeth. Or as you say just boost and cut so it can be more subtle.

[leigh]

I love Massey's Tape Head for this, but as of now I think it's RTAS only.

FYI, there is a free Audio Unit version of Tape Head available here:

http://www.smassey.com/au.html

Slighly limited (no tone switch), and doesn't have the fancy GUI, but still does the trick...

Leigh