Active monitors - surprising freq-vs-gain structure result

[Z-Plane]

I have just moved some active Event 20/20s into a programming room I am using. I've used these extensively over the years, but not in this room, and after a couple of weeks thinking they were sounding particularly muddy and dull, I planned to trim the LF pot on the rear, hoping to cut a bit of the mud. Once I had a good look, I saw the input gains were set to one quarter from a previous install, still plenty loud enough for this room, but I turned them both way up and put them back.

Wow - the difference was night and day, sparkling mids and tops appeared out of nowhere with the bass now firmly balanced and hardly muddy at all. I knew that in general, amps struggle to reach optimum response at low levels, but to be fair I could have turned them down a couple more notches further. Anyway, at the same listening levels, the response of the Events was utterly different once I raised the input stage. The trade off is that I'm losing a bit of travel from the desk monitor pot, but the definition I seem to have gained is incredible.

[Snarl 12/8]

That's better than finding $20 in the pocket of a sport coat you haven't worn in 2 years.

[sound for sandwiches]

Yeah, I have thought about this several times over the past year, as I have had to break down and reassemble my mixing arrangement quite a bit. I use passive monitors, but notice the same thing, they sound better with the power amp opened up. Of course, more is just more beyond a certain SPL, especially in the small room I am forced to use for mixing. I have tried adjusting the volume at every possible point, and so far haven't come up with a definitive best practice. With the ability to adjust the listening level in the DAW, at the interface's monitor level knob, and the power amp; how would you do it? Intuitively it seems earlier in the chain is better.

David

[@?,*???&?]

Wow - the difference was night and day, sparkling mids and tops appeared out of nowhere with the bass now firmly balanced and hardly muddy at all.

Alot of pre/amps and amps exhibit this same thing. Generally, a compression and distortion that happens that seems to beef up what you're doing. Your job as engineer is to realize it and capture that sound.

What you've just affected is on the playback side- NOT on the recording side. You need to make those decisions BEFORE they are recorded and capture that sound into your chosen recording format.

Tape sounds different whether you record +3 or +9. That choice is up to you.

Driving a line-up has everything to do with how a final mix is going to sound. An SSL E-series console distorts in a musical fashion. Many believe those were the best sounding mix boards SSL made. Capitalizing on that bringing that character to your final result is definitely a choice.

Consider also the aspect of the Fletcher-Munson effect and think about how that might also have something to do with what you've just discovered.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

Yup, often the attenuators used in cheaper monitors seem to be garbage. I've always liked to keep my powered monitors wide open and attenuate beforehand. Can't say the same thing for my passive monitors, but the amps I have running them are SO overpowered that I'd risk blowing the things up.

I'd imagine since the amp inside an active monitor is matched perfectly to the speaker it would sound best wide open. That's how they were designed to be run! It's like turning down the master volume on a guitar amp. You can do it but it'll eat a little bit of your lunch.

[sound for sandwiches]

Driving a line-up has everything to do with how a final mix is going to sound. An SSL E-series console distorts in a musical fashion. Many believe those were the best sounding mix boards SSL made. Capitalizing on that bringing that character to your final result is definitely a choice.

Consider also the aspect of the Fletcher-Munson effect and think about how that might also have something to do with what you've just discovered.

It seems like you're directing this at the OP, but I will add that for my setup, which is, ahem, quite a bit less distingished than SSL, I am careful to not overdrive any element of the system when I set the gain structure- there's no desirable compression/overdrive my M-audio profire lightbridge can contribute. As for fletcher-munson effects, sure, but the problem is close monitoring in small rooms limits one's ability to crank up the volume. Hence the common suggestion on this board to get a sub if bass isn't translating in your mixes.

Since I basically have a chain of components that offer attenuation to the monitor signal via variable resistors, and the ability to adjust the volume in my DAW digitally, would it be logical to assume that using the DAW option would introduce the fewest unwanted audible effects, all other things being equal?

[Z-Plane]

Well, the priciple seems to be one of eliminating any pots that get used time closer to min than max, or upgrade any that fall into this class. I'm considering the TC level pilot next, that would be the only pot in my chain having to do any work near minimum.

[accordion squeezist]

I find that if I jiggle all the knobs in my playback amps and 30eq (60 circuits right there!) about once a month everything sounds better right away. Just re-arranging the dirt.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

Since I basically have a chain of components that offer attenuation to the monitor signal via variable resistors, and the ability to adjust the volume in my DAW digitally, would it be logical to assume that using the DAW option would introduce the fewest unwanted audible effects, all other things being equal?

if you attenuate in the DAW you're losing resolution, so i would do it with the monitor's level knob.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

if you attenuate in the DAW you're losing resolution, so i would do it with the monitor's level knob.

That's true, but you're only losing resolution in the playback, not in the long term. When you listen to it louder to check it the resolution will come right back. Also, at 24 bits you have so much resolution that I can't imagine this ever being a problem. You're more likely to run in to the noise floor of the analog circuitry in the converters.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

yeah you're right. i guess i just worry about the following scenario, which i would undoubtedly do at some point:

you pull down the master 20db to monitor at a reasonable level, the mix sounds good, so you put the master back to zero and bounce it. you then forget that you turned the master up, hit play and your ears and/or speakers catch on fire.

[mwerden]

you pull down the master 20db to monitor at a reasonable level, the mix sounds good, so you put the master back to zero and bounce it. you then forget that you turned the master up, hit play and your ears and/or speakers catch on fire.

I've been in some temporary situations without a monitor controller and I definitely blew out my ears at least once. It made me very nervous to be set up that way, but it does work for whatever that's worth.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

yeah you're right. i guess i just worry about the following scenario, which i would undoubtedly do at some point:

you pull down the master 20db to monitor at a reasonable level, the mix sounds good, so you put the master back to zero and bounce it. you then forget that you turned the master up, hit play and your ears and/or speakers catch on fire.

Easy enough to get around if you're careful!

Send everything out of two separate pairs of outputs (for example 1&2 and 3&4)

Hook 3&4 up to your monitors and keep the master volume down on them
Bounce out of 1&2, and just don't touch the master level.

The whole thing's not ideal but you should be able to do it.

[acoosticzoo]

I have just moved some active Event 20/20s into a programming room I am using. I've used these extensively over the years, but not in this room, and after a couple of weeks thinking they were sounding particularly muddy and dull, I planned to trim the LF pot on the rear, hoping to cut a bit of the mud. Once I had a good look, I saw the input gains were set to one quarter from a previous install, still plenty loud enough for this room, but I turned them both way up and put them back.

Wow - the difference was night and day, sparkling mids and tops appeared out of nowhere with the bass now firmly balanced and hardly muddy at all. I knew that in general, amps struggle to reach optimum response at low levels, but to be fair I could have turned them down a couple more notches further. Anyway, at the same listening levels, the response of the Events was utterly different once I raised the input stage. The trade off is that I'm losing a bit of travel from the desk monitor pot, but the definition I seem to have gained is incredible.

Thanks, That's a great EUREKA Moment. I don't remember how my KRK's are set on the back, but I'll Check again, better to be prudent I guess.