Chinese Condensers (and other cheap mics) what do you think.

[KennyLusk]

I think it's interesting how we now buy cheap Chinese mics only to turn around and pay to have them upgraded by bright American engineers. I wish it were the case where more bright American engineers manufactured their own mics for around the same "aggregate" cost.

It's inspiring to see Michael Joly finally offering his own line of mics as he's been probably dreaming of such an achievement for many years now. The only "hitch" is a Chinese manufacturer is still involved. I don't say that as a criticism BTW so please don't take it that way - I have nothing but profound respect for MJ and everything he's accomplished and contributed to recording environments (consumer & pro) worldwide.

My point though is in my initial statement.

[kslight]

I think it's interesting how we now buy cheap Chinese mics only to turn around and pay to have them upgraded by bright American engineers. I wish it were the case where more bright American engineers manufactured their own mics for around the same "aggregate" cost.

This is exactly what I have against mods of mediocre gear...such as BLA, MJ.... I'm not saying you can't have a business out of it...for sure more power to you its a good idea to take all this crap gear and try to make it good and make some money at it, but I personally would rather buy something that is good to begin with rather than be ripped off for crappy gear (like a 003) and then have to pay some guy in his garage tons of money again to make it sound good, only to have to throw it away and start over again in a few years when Digi stops supporting it. MJ at least is a little better in that most people don't ever throw away their mics unless they break them, so its a somewhat better value...but why can't these mics be made a little better to begin with, even if they cost a little more at the end of the day? Seriously. If someone could make not a mediocre LDC but a really good no frills one and price it at $300... But instead they'd prefer to manufacture junk LDCs and sell them for $100, so we can pad MJ's pockets for the difference to make it a good mic.

Again, NOTHING AGAINST MJ, but I am not interested in paying for gear that has to be modded to be worthwhile...but I'd also rather not pay an arm and a leg that a German microphone might command, need a middle price point.

[KennyLusk]

but I'd also rather not pay an arm and a leg that a German microphone might command, need a middle price point.

I feel MJ and other's like him will get us there. It's a revolution! :ar15:

[Michael_Joly]

Points taken and no criticism heard.

It is my goal to offer new, high performance mics at attractive price points. There are some out there now - AT mics get a lot of love for example. But it seems many mics are built to hit a certain price, rather than performance point so some compromises have to be made in R&D, industrial design and component choice.

So aftermarket microphone modification allows recordists with tight budgets the opportunity to gradually grow the quality of the tools they use and not just toss them out or sell them at a loss.

But as a side bar - it is simply a misunderstanding or oversight to couple the commonly used K67-type capsule with its built in HF rise to a flat response circuit. It would have cost much more to implement the K67-type capsule properly had these "manufacturers" actually employed engineers who were familiar with the history and proper usage of this capsule. There you have an example of "American" mic companies not knowing, or not insisting their Chinese vendors produce authentically acurate implimentations of the circuits that were intended by Neumann to be used with the K67 capsule.

re: American manufacturing - before I started down the path to doing my own line of mics (well documented in a Gearslutz thread) I tried to find local (Springfield, MA) machine shops who would take on my projects. But this is a former skilled manufacturing area where most of the shop are supported by high-paying government defense contracts and could not offer me manufacturing pricing that would allow me to hit the price points people expect from me that come from my aftermarket modification of Russian and Chinese manufactured mics.

Ben Sneezbee in Australia with his Beezneez mics is bringing out made-in-house microphones - high quality mics but his pricing reflects his cost of doing business in Australia.

I really feel dedicated to the pricing level I'm at because I enjoy being able to help young recordists get their first great sounding mic or grow their mic lockers economically while still enjoying top shelf sound. I could not do these two things if I manufactured in America and my average price point was $1200 - $1500 per mic on the low end.

[kslight]

Points taken and no criticism heard.

It is my goal to offer new, high performance mics at attractive price points. There are some out there now - AT mics get a lot of love for example. But it seems many mics are built to hit a certain price, rather than performance point so some compromises have to be made in R&D, industrial design and component choice.

So aftermarket microphone modification allows recordists with tight budgets the opportunity to gradually grow the quality of the tools they use and not just toss them out or sell them at a loss.

But as a side bar - it is simply a misunderstanding or oversight to couple the commonly used K67-type capsule with its built in HF rise to a flat response circuit. It would have cost much more to implement the K67-type capsule properly had these "manufacturers" actually employed engineers who were familiar with the history and proper usage of this capsule. There you have an example of "American" mic companies not knowing, or not insisting their Chinese vendors produce authentically acurate implimentations of the circuits that were intended by Neumann to be used with the K67 capsule.

re: American manufacturing - before I started down the path to doing my own line of mics (well documented in a Gearslutz thread) I tried to find local (Springfield, MA) machine shops who would take on my projects. But this is a former skilled manufacturing area where most of the shop are supported by high-paying government defense contracts and could not offer me manufacturing pricing that would allow me to hit the price points people expect from me that come from my aftermarket modification of Russian and Chinese manufactured mics.

Ben Sneezbee in Australia with his Beezneez mics is bringing out made-in-house microphones - high quality mics but his pricing reflects his cost of doing business in Australia.

I really feel dedicated to the pricing level I'm at because I enjoy being able to help young recordists get their first great sounding mic or grow their mic lockers economically while still enjoying top shelf sound. I could not do these two things if I manufactured in America and my average price point was $1200 - $1500 per mic on the low end.

Its a respectable goal and well intention...will definitely pay attention when you've got a product out there. Hell I'd do free recording if gear was free and somehow my bills got paid by good karma alone!

[Producer/Engineer]

Let me tell you about my experience with Michael Joly.
I had a Rode NT1a mic that had sat on the shelf for over a year because I was unhappy with it's brittle high end which wrecked havoc on acoustic guitar and some vocals. Meanwhile I purchased mics in the $500. to $1200. range and liked most of them.
When Mr. Joly announced that he was offering a modification on the Rode NT1a I listened to audio clips that demonstrated recordings of the modified NT1a and a Neumann U87 (purple badge). He posed the question: Can you tell which one is which? Since I have worked with U87's in a few studios over the years, and have used an unmodded NT1a for a while the picking of the Neumann was not difficult but I liked the detail of the modded Rode mic much better, the midrange increase was dramatic and the brittle top end sounded much smoother.
I sent the mic in for the modification and although I was impressed by the audio files, the actual modded NT1a that I received back from Mr. Joly was twice as impressive! It was like having a U87 with outstanding audio detail (or insert Mojo), a beautiful mid range and a smooth top end with tons of detail.
I have since sold three of those more expensive microphones which are no longer of any use to me.
I have a total of $549. *(including the original price of the NT1a) into my outstanding NT1a "MJ" modded microphone and furthermore, Michael Joly did not pad his wallet but in fact, he padded mine!

[dumaisaudio]

any experience with the CAD cm217? Musician's friend has them $50 for a pair! they have a pad and hpf too. I'm just wondering if a few new capacitors might make them worthy of a mic worth twice that.

I'm also interested in the CAD CM217. Has anyone used these, how do they compare to the similar MXL mics, as they're half the price.

[Michael_Joly]

I've always wondered if the CAD CM217 is an electret condenser (fairly high noise floor) or if it is a true, externally polarized condenser. I just ordered a couple and will report back.

[mrc]

I think this whole mod business is just great. I've had an email exchange with MJ some time ago. He was very helpful to me and encouraging me to learn on my own. I go back to the 60's as a performer, 70's as a radio student in college, and started recording while in college, as well as the required FCC 3rd class engineer lic for on air volume knob touching, at the time (LOL). Then on to recording and playing large venues, and eventually (again) touching the HOLY controls... And getting paid for all of it, (+2 LOL...) Now we are learning (again) what a 2nd class engineer was doing when I started in radio. I just love what we are all learning, and it's hard for me to stop doing it for myself, but I think I'm going to have to cave to MJ's 47 on a stick at some point. Still, he's here, encouraging everyone and sharing knowledge, plus there are a lot of others, Jim Williams, Peluso, many, many more, please don't anyone be offended by not being named...The manufacturers are aiming for the mid to bottom, while these people are all helping to raise the bar against them. Forums like this and DIY through the people who post and contribute, among others, are helping to spread the WORD. This, along with the advances in recording technology and music education will surely lead to a bloom in music perhaps never seen before. What a great time to be a living musician

For full disclosure, I have purchased from Peluso and others not named here, and am greatful to them all for what I now have, and most importantly, have learned through their generosity. My main goal now is to help new artists who are in the position I was once in, no cash and no gear with lots of youth.
mrc

[Michael_Joly]

As promised, here's my take on the CAD CM217 mic. Yes indeed. You can get two of them for $50. The each come packed in a little box inserted into their mic stand clip. They are electret condenser mics and use the common Panasonic-type cardioid capsules. They have a bass roll-off and 10dB pad.

Sound? The noise floor is fairly high - as can be expected from a 1/4" electret cartridge. But they're not noisier than any other mic of this class and they're a lot less money, plus buying these is easier than DIY from electret capsules and XLR connectors. The top end is a bit bright, but way more useable than the electret condenser Behringer C2 mics which are very thin, papery and sibilant.

Are they worth $50 / pair? Not for acoustic guitar work - too noisy. They might be acceptable for drum OH use though.

I still think the Apex 180 for $50 each with its cardioid and omni capsules is a much better mic (lower noise) and can be upgraded into KM 184 class.

[kingmetal]

Its a respectable goal and well intention...will definitely pay attention when you've got a product out there. Hell I'd do free recording if gear was free and somehow my bills got paid by good karma alone!

I do record for free -- my bills get paid by my dayjob and because of people like Mr. Joly I'm able to offer recording services to local artists and actually give pretty decent results considering I have precious little experience and I'm working on a tight budget. Virtually my entire mic locker came from Oktavamod, as Joly has a knack for offering mods for mics I just happened to buy over the years (like the NT1A or MXL 991).

But I've actually bought mics specifically to be modded by Oktavamod and I still find them a great value. I bought an MXL 67G and pretty much immediately shipped it to Joly (I considered actually shipping it directly to him!) and it's one of my favorite mics in my locker. Could I have one out and found a $250 mic that sounded as good as my modded 67G at the outset? I doubt it. Does it sounds like a U47? Probably not, but my artists LOVE the sound of their voices on this mic compared to my previous LDCs and I think the price/performance ratio is off the charts.

To me, the fact that companies are charging $1200 for a mic that probably cost $200 in parts is ludicrous and I'm always skeptical about buying name brand stuff now that I've heard Joly's work. Remember when Telefunken tried to pass off a $200 Apex mic off as a $1200 M16? Ironically, the Apex mic actually had slightly better components in it and sounded better! Sure, I doubt Neumann would sully their name by pulling the same kind of move but I have to wonder about charging so much for a mic like the KM184 when the manufacturing costs have to be almost nothing! I bet I would prefer the KM184 over my MXL 991s that Joly modded, but I bet I wouldn't prefer them enough to justify the cost and that's what it's all about to me.

I can't knock the great mics out there, and I'm probably on the verge of sounding like an Oktavamod shill around here -- but I'm just constantly in awe of the quality of the microphones I've been able to get my hands on in the last year thanks to Joly and I can't help but share the love. I pictured myself saving all my pennies for entry level Blue mics and mid-level SDCs by this time and instead I'm working with mics I genuinely love and honestly feel I will continue to use for years to come, not because I can't afford better gear but because the gear I have is already great!

Besides, why give money to some huge German corporation when you could give money to a nice guy like Joly! Do Neumann reps ever come on to these boards and give people advice for free?

[percussion boy]

hey guys. I am trying to set up a "C" room studio at my studio (more like an "F" room), just to do mostly live demos of songs for pre pre-production and band's super fast demos (including my own).

What I want are 8 (cheap) mics:
1- Kick
2- Snare
3- Overhead L
4- Overhear R
5- Bass
6- Guitar
7- Guitar (and other)
8- Vocals

I am interested in Chinese condenser mics for some of these.

any ideas?

For this application, why not use mostly dynamics -- maybe even for vocals (sm7)? Mono overhead on drums, DI the bass. Might be a good way to get maximum quality at a low price point, plus ruggedness.

Sometimes demos turn out to be masters.

[s goodman]

i'm surprised no one mentioned the MCA SP1. for $50 i think it's a great value. it worked very well for me as the mid in a M/S miking for acoustic guitar. i paired that with a Rode NT2A as the side. the Rode is bright and the MCA is a little dark, so i found that setup took out some of the harshness of the attack while capturing more air in the room.

the MCA also sounds good for shakers and hand percussion. it's a fun mic to use in creative ways. it sounds cheap but in a really musical way if that makes sense.

[dumaisaudio]

As promised, here's my take on the CAD CM217 mic.

...

Are they worth $50 / pair? Not for acoustic guitar work - too noisy. They might be acceptable for drum OH use though.

Thanks for the run down. I think I'll save my money on them, especially since I just got a pair of M39's for $55.

All this talk of Joly Mods has got me sold, now I just need to decide which mic to mod (my V67g is my first choice).

[kingmetal]

As promised, here's my take on the CAD CM217 mic.

...

Are they worth $50 / pair? Not for acoustic guitar work - too noisy. They might be acceptable for drum OH use though.

Thanks for the run down. I think I'll save my money on them, especially since I just got a pair of M39's for $55.

All this talk of Joly Mods has got me sold, now I just need to decide which mic to mod (my V67g is my first choice).

Highly recommend that mod. I've got the 67G mod, two of the Ultimate 603 mods, the 67G and the NT1-A mods and I love them all for very different reasons. The 67G is detailed and wonderful, I've used it on vocals and cello with great results so far.