Which tape formula and why?

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:33 am

There are a billion threads about this spread all over the internet universe... I'm kinda curious though about who HERE is using what now that tape availability has changed.

I recently acquired a tascam MS16. I'm hoping to get it calibrated, biased, aligned, up and running within the next month and I'm wondering what tape formula to use.

It came with some used 456. I've only used GP9 on these machines as well as on a studer 827.

I keep running into drastic opinions on whether the ms16 can handle the high output stuff like gp9 and that using it on this machine is a waste of money cause the electronics over load before the tape can be saturated. I also hear that GP9 is great to use with this machine because its quieter. So yeah, a mix of opinions out there.

Well, GP9 and 456 isn't made anymore.. its out there on the used market though. But if it was available, which did you use and why? And now what are you using in place of the quantengy products?

I mostly record loud rock stuff. Punk, metal, hardcore.. stuff. I'm wanting to get all basics on to tape, then dump into protools for overdubs and mix.

djimbe · Post by **djimbe** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:58 pm

You didn't mention transport speed, which may be a factor to consider. Got no clue what your MS16 can run at.

I roll a 1979 MCI JH-16 (so 2", but whatever). I have a big stock of 499, and lesser amounts of 456. The 456 sounds great on loud rock, and I prefer to roll it at 15ips since I think it sounds better at that speed, and the overbias isn't too high for that formula at that speed. My deck electronics can't handle the bias required to roll GP9 at +3 over 355 and 15ips, so I save that stuff for more dynamic material and roll it at 30ips where the electronics are happier, and I'm looking for max S/N.

So, 456 for me most often, and mostly because that's what my machine is happiest rolling. Or the old Emtek 911 (if you can find some good used reels) which I really liked the sound of. I'll run 499 sometimes, and almost never GP9. I don't have but 1 or 2 reels of GP9 and I never really thought it better than 499.

I haven't used any of the current crop of tape because I have a good backstock of non-shedding stuff to work with.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:05 pm

djimbe wrote:You didn't mention transport speed, which may be a factor to consider. Got no clue what your MS16 can run at.

ahh good point! i'll be running it at 15 ips

So, 456 for me most often, and mostly because that's what my machine is happiest rolling. Or the old Emtek 911 (if you can find some good used reels) which I really liked the sound of. I'll run 499 sometimes, and almost never GP9. I don't have but 1 or 2 reels of GP9 and I never really thought it better than 499.
.

cool, so you're constantly resetting your machine for whatever formula you want to work with. I'm looking forward on how to do this myself, so I can eventually listen to different formulas and decide myself. Just getting an idea to start with now just to get the ball rolling. Thanks for the info.

stereopathetic_banjo · Post by **stereopathetic_banjo** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:01 pm

I'm another late model JH-16 owner (2" 16 track), and I was worried to death about running my machine at elevated levels due to killing the electronics and worse yet lack of erasure at higher levels. But just a month or so ago I attained some 3M 996 tape and decided to give it a go. Its a whole different world running the MCI at +9. I tested and tested to see if there was a glimpse of non erasure, and I couldn't detect it. The electronics seemed to take anything I threw at them too, so needless to say, I was psyched. Here's the snob appeal: I have brand new NOS heads on my machine I bought from John French last summer- so I'm sure that helps a bit. But alas, Get a reel of +9 tape and test away. I was back and forth until I just gave it a shot. I really didn't think it'd work, and it did. Who knew? Hope my babbling helps a bit.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:26 pm

stereopathetic_banjo wrote:I was back and forth until I just gave it a shot. I really didn't think it'd work, and it did. Who knew? Hope my babbling helps a bit.

So you were happier with the sound of the +9 tape over what you were using before then. What aspects were "better"?

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:10 pm

I actually run GP9, or 499, or 996 at +6 over 185.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:29 pm

drumsound wrote:I actually run GP9, or 499, or 996 at +6 over 185.

And those formulas are all interchangeable right? Do you prefer one over the other depending on what the style of music is?

cjmnash · Post by **cjmnash** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:31 pm

my suggestion? find a bunch of good, used tape first, THEN decide on the formulation. if you find 20 reels of 456...go with that. if it's 499, go with that.

you'll be happy no matter which pro tape formulation you end up with. there are very slight differences between 499, GP9, SM900, 996, etc and all operate at the same elevated level.

get some tape, line it up, start recording!

chris mara
www.welcometo1979.com

ps- if you want new tape- go with ATR. seriously. ATR.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:40 pm

Thanks Chris. Appreciated.

Yeah I got ten or so reels of 456 with the machine. Used reels but i'm sure still useable. I've also got a handful of gp9 reels from working out of other studios over the past 9 years...

So its a toss up! but very excited indeed. I worked on one of these machines when i first came to Seattle 9 years ago.. Knowing nothing about tape besides, putting it on the machine, setting levels, and recording.... which was all I really needed since the studio owner took care of the rest... now i've got one of my own and probably making it more of a big deal than I should.. but just want to edjumacate myself a bit more on these decisions.

cjmnash · Post by **cjmnash** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:53 pm

you're welcome.

once in a while i get a wild hair to attempt to A/B different tape (and/or overbais levels) so i'll align half the tracks to one formulation (or overbais level) and the other half to the other. then send (for example) the same set of tracks from Pro Tools to each of the set of tracks and listen to the difference. sometimes i'll just align 2 tracks to each to save some time.

try that if you have some time to kill.

-chris mara
www.welcometo1979.com

stereopathetic_banjo · Post by **stereopathetic_banjo** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:17 am

What I liked about running at +9 as opposed to say + 6 was the feeling of getting 'juiced' tones on playback. It's really all in how you look at it. I am very careful about levels, so if you get some stray hot level running at + 9, you may be screwed pretty quick as opposed to giving yourself some headroom. Take what I say with a grain of salt- as I said the elevated thing is a new situation for me. Someone like Chris or Tony has much more experience in the trenches than I. I guess I do like the sound of tape being pushed, when it comes down to it. Plus playing back and hearing no noise really gets your client psyched about recording analog. Good luck!

joel hamilton · Post by **joel hamilton** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:38 am

Over the years I have used a ton of different formulations at a few different levels.
I like 499 a lot. I have also been really impressed by the ATR stuff on the 2 track machine.
I used to really love the 900 H.O.T basf tape, and the 499 on my MCI JH10 16trk 2". Then I got a JH24 and liked the same thing.
I also had an MCI 1/2' machine with SR at that point ad like the 900 on that machine also. Keep in mind that without protools around as a viable option, and only blackfaced adats, I was trying for the transient response and noise floor tha now come stock with good converters and a DAW of any kind.
Working on an otari MTR90 I liked 499, but people brought GP9 in and it worked fine because it was so clean and open and non "tapey". The sparklehorse "its a wonderful life" record was GP9, but the UNSANE record was 499, you know?
When I got an 827, I realized that GP9 sounded like protools HD on that machine;). Seriously. So clean, no tone to it at all. Like the grace or millenia preamp of tape machine sounds...

so Trodden,
knowing what kind of stuff you are recording, I would just try to grab some 499, because the transient response is so much more fun than 456 at 15ips. I like tape squish, but not THAT much that the snare wont crack and the drums just sort of melt into the background in an overly cartoon-y vintage way.
Also, the sound of distorting electronics is not that bad a thing. Most modern tape formulations will SCORCH he repro electronics of any tape machine, so whatever... get used to where your machine likes to print.
I had one of those MS16's, and I printed pretty hot on it and it sounded great. I also had a 38 and printed hot on that and that worked totally great as well.
Printing hot at 15ips on 499 will still leave you a bit of front edge as opposed to 456 which makes everything too round.
Email me if you wanna talk about this more.
Also, if people dont want any noise at all they need to listen a litte more to all the records they like. The idea that a noise floor will somehow detract from a record is so ridiculous and proven to be complete BS by, um every record ever?
Just get used to where that machine likes to speak, and stay in that range. it has nothing to do with anything but you making it great with the band.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:34 pm

trodden wrote:
drumsound wrote:I actually run GP9, or 499, or 996 at +6 over 185.
And those formulas are all interchangeable right? Do you prefer one over the other depending on what the style of music is?

They are bias and level compatible. 499 has a little more bite, but I like the smoothness of 996 and GP9. I haven't liked 499 on 2-track as much as on the 24-track.

stereopathetic_banjo · Post by **stereopathetic_banjo** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:38 pm

Some great points all around in this thread. I don't have much to add aside from agreeing with Joel about gp9 not having much of a tone. On my Otari, it sounds almost transparent, but on my Jh-16 it has a good combo of clarity and the ability to take a lot of level. Also, my machine and console are packed with transformers, which makes quite a difference down stream. That's kind of why it was a revelation of sorts to be recording on higher output tape, compared to the relative softness of hitting 456 with level to overcome hiss.
That said, noise ain't no thang in my world, but in this crazy world of people expecting digital silence, sometimes I get paranoid.

trodden · Post by **trodden** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:48 pm

Thanks a lot everyone.

Yeah, transients.. important.. I do need that kick and snare to cut through, snap, with the WALL O GUITARS style of music I do record.

So a balance of some tape compression while not totally losing the front end/attack would be nice.

So I guess my next questions.. What ATR formulas "match" up with the quantegy formulas?

Edit: It seems that ATR only has one type of tape.

Message Board

Which tape formula and why?

Which tape formula and why?

Who is online