I'd like some help with my brothers acoustic guitar sound. We have made an album, and now weve assembled a 5 piece band to play it live. Anyway its all sounding pretty damn good except the acoustic guitar sound line in through the PA. My brother has an amzing acoustic guitar made by Australian brand Cole Clark, the Fat Lady 2AC. It sounds great acoustic but line in is another story. We would like to find out the best way to achieve a good/realistic sound in a live setting, assuming there is no possibilty of micing it up. Should we replace the pickups? (According to the website "Dual Input pick up is Piezo type, bridge mounted and top plate sensor." whatever that means) Should we purchase a nice DI preamp? Should we get a acoutic guitar amplifier? All of the above? Any help and experience would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advamnce,
Josh
acousitc guitar live
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douglas baldwin
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The qualities that make an acoustic guitar sound great acoustically are the qualities that make it sound terrible when amplified.
A good acoustic guitar will be light and resonant at a wide range of frequencies. It will have a pliant top that will respond quickly to small fluctuations. I'll bet your Cole Clark guitar is just such a beauty. Place this fine, responsive instrument near a speaker that is reinforcing the very same frequencies, and you have a perfect recipe for feedback and bizarrely overemphasized resonances. The more you try to EQ out these resonances, the more you emphasize that plastic pie-pan tone that we often associate with piezo pickups and poor amplified acoustic tone.
A good acoustic-electric guitar will probably be heavier, and will sound rather quiet, even dull, when unamplified. It's top will be somewhat stiff and it won't have much bass response. If it has a soundhole, that hole should be plugged. My favorite plug is the heavy rubber "Feedback Buster," as shown in this youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YAxG_AYMo8 . Not only does the Feedback Buster totally seal up the soundhole (thereby eliminating the foghorn bellow known as the guitar's Helmholtz resonance), it also adds mass to the top, killing any seconary resonances. Ignore the nancy-boy fancypants carved decorative cover he shows at the end of the Youtube clip - it's about as good as putting a screen door on a submarine.
Of course, a good acoustic-electric guitar will have a good pickup system in it. The louder your band, the more you want to avoid an internal microphone. (And if you're using a Feedback Buster, that mic will be less than useless anyway.) Go with a good quality under-the-saddle pickup and a good preamp, and be sure to run it through a full-frequency sound system. If you can mix out the top plate sensor in your Cole Clark, you might begin to get better results. Amplifying with your PA is good, assuming you have a good PA. Lots of clean wattage is good - the slightest bit of distortion usually sounds like brown air with an acoustic guitar.
The one thing you don't mention in your post, Josh, is what the lineup of the band is, which will temper my response in different directions. If you're playing traditional bluegrass and standing around a single microphone, then totally disregard what I've said. If you're playing music that is primarily acoustic - soft drums, warm low bass, keyboards adding color and pads - then something as simple as the Feedback Buster ($8 in most music stores) will do the trick. If you're revving up the decibels, the big ol' wooden acoustic guitar becomes more of a signifier than a practical construction. It tells the audience, "Hey, we have a little old school flavor here," or, if you put down the electric and pick up the acoustic, "Now we're going to play a sensitive ballad."
I've been playing amplified acoustic guitars as well as electric guitars steadily and professionally since about 1972. For acoustic gigs (about 50 a year as a duo with a bassist/vocalist) I currently play a super-shallow-bowl Ovation with a bridge saddle system I made myself. I couldn't stand that Ovation row-of-plastic-Monopoly-houses bridge saddle system, so I've made one from Corian with a Fishman piezo under-the-saddle pickup and some wacky add-on preamp that Fishman made to match the original Ovation preamp. Of course I use the Feedback Buster, and I run it through a Soundcraft Gigrac 1000st powered mixer, Mackie SRM350 powered monitors, and Mackie C 300 mains. The Ovation pretty much sucks as an acoustic instrument, but it totally owns the house when amplified. With just a flick of the volume knob (about two notches), I can go from a full strum to a single-note solo to a fingerpicked passage, and it always sounds full and warm and detailed. (By the way, my #2 acoustic for amplification is a Wechter Pathmaker: http://www.wechterguitars.com/models/Pa ... athDTeOv.
Josh, you might want to consider leaving the good guitar at home and get yourself an inexpensive small-bodied acoustic for the live gigs!
Woah. I just wrote me some long-winded reply, didn't I? Hey, I'm passionate about guitars, and this topic is often quite misunderstood in my experience. I hope this helps you.
A good acoustic guitar will be light and resonant at a wide range of frequencies. It will have a pliant top that will respond quickly to small fluctuations. I'll bet your Cole Clark guitar is just such a beauty. Place this fine, responsive instrument near a speaker that is reinforcing the very same frequencies, and you have a perfect recipe for feedback and bizarrely overemphasized resonances. The more you try to EQ out these resonances, the more you emphasize that plastic pie-pan tone that we often associate with piezo pickups and poor amplified acoustic tone.
A good acoustic-electric guitar will probably be heavier, and will sound rather quiet, even dull, when unamplified. It's top will be somewhat stiff and it won't have much bass response. If it has a soundhole, that hole should be plugged. My favorite plug is the heavy rubber "Feedback Buster," as shown in this youtube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YAxG_AYMo8 . Not only does the Feedback Buster totally seal up the soundhole (thereby eliminating the foghorn bellow known as the guitar's Helmholtz resonance), it also adds mass to the top, killing any seconary resonances. Ignore the nancy-boy fancypants carved decorative cover he shows at the end of the Youtube clip - it's about as good as putting a screen door on a submarine.
Of course, a good acoustic-electric guitar will have a good pickup system in it. The louder your band, the more you want to avoid an internal microphone. (And if you're using a Feedback Buster, that mic will be less than useless anyway.) Go with a good quality under-the-saddle pickup and a good preamp, and be sure to run it through a full-frequency sound system. If you can mix out the top plate sensor in your Cole Clark, you might begin to get better results. Amplifying with your PA is good, assuming you have a good PA. Lots of clean wattage is good - the slightest bit of distortion usually sounds like brown air with an acoustic guitar.
The one thing you don't mention in your post, Josh, is what the lineup of the band is, which will temper my response in different directions. If you're playing traditional bluegrass and standing around a single microphone, then totally disregard what I've said. If you're playing music that is primarily acoustic - soft drums, warm low bass, keyboards adding color and pads - then something as simple as the Feedback Buster ($8 in most music stores) will do the trick. If you're revving up the decibels, the big ol' wooden acoustic guitar becomes more of a signifier than a practical construction. It tells the audience, "Hey, we have a little old school flavor here," or, if you put down the electric and pick up the acoustic, "Now we're going to play a sensitive ballad."
I've been playing amplified acoustic guitars as well as electric guitars steadily and professionally since about 1972. For acoustic gigs (about 50 a year as a duo with a bassist/vocalist) I currently play a super-shallow-bowl Ovation with a bridge saddle system I made myself. I couldn't stand that Ovation row-of-plastic-Monopoly-houses bridge saddle system, so I've made one from Corian with a Fishman piezo under-the-saddle pickup and some wacky add-on preamp that Fishman made to match the original Ovation preamp. Of course I use the Feedback Buster, and I run it through a Soundcraft Gigrac 1000st powered mixer, Mackie SRM350 powered monitors, and Mackie C 300 mains. The Ovation pretty much sucks as an acoustic instrument, but it totally owns the house when amplified. With just a flick of the volume knob (about two notches), I can go from a full strum to a single-note solo to a fingerpicked passage, and it always sounds full and warm and detailed. (By the way, my #2 acoustic for amplification is a Wechter Pathmaker: http://www.wechterguitars.com/models/Pa ... athDTeOv.
Josh, you might want to consider leaving the good guitar at home and get yourself an inexpensive small-bodied acoustic for the live gigs!
Woah. I just wrote me some long-winded reply, didn't I? Hey, I'm passionate about guitars, and this topic is often quite misunderstood in my experience. I hope this helps you.
Douglas Baldwin, coyote in residence
Music and writings
Psychedelic pop and ambient soundscapes a specialty
www.thecoyote.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Music and writings
Psychedelic pop and ambient soundscapes a specialty
www.thecoyote.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
We want to have an option for line in becuase most of the venues around where well be playing (Perth, Aus) usually seem to go line in for acoustic guitars for whatever reason.Producer/Engineer wrote:I would just mic it up with a Shure SM81. Beautiful
Thankyou very much Douglas Baldwin your post is extremely helpful. I will elaborate and maybe you can help me further! I have looked on the internet and a music store near me stocks the feedbackbuster, i will certainly be purchasing one of them. Now our band is very loud; I(drummer) have very big drums, We have Teles (going mostly clean) into shrill Fender amps , electric bass into huge amp, and an effects rig with sample that we like to crank, sometimes organ or piano on top of that. Not to mention my brother who sings and strums very loudly. We are not a "heavy" band perse, but we all play loudly. The songs that have acoustic guitar in them are either 1. soft, folky fingerpicked semiballads, still full band - ie Iron and Wine, Will Oldham, Calexico etc (we cover The Replacements Swingin Party if thats any indication). or 2. Strummy, full, loud, raucous, faster rock songs, often with crazy samples and fx. Hope that helps, becuase I would like to ask if you have any reccomendations for a good under-the-saddle pickup and a good preamp?
The PA will usuually be the house PA of the venue were playing at.
More of your wisdon will be very much appreciated!
Thanks,
Josh
also we might be interested in purchasing another guitar for live purposes but the expenses start to rack up when you need a new guitar / preamp / pickups
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douglas baldwin
- gettin' sounds
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- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:51 am
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Hey Josh -
I'm glad I could help a bit, and hopefully focus your search.
It seems the Cole Clark onboard preamp has a blender for the bridge/face pickups, no? That should give you some control, and along with the Feedback Buster, may be all you need.
My own take is to avoid outboard preamps, compressors, EQs, etc. as much as possible. Get it right with the guitar and the pickups, and you can plug into most PA systems with confidence. Considering that you have a "fairly loud" band, the role of the acoustic guitar is no longer "realistic." What will sound good when you play the acoustic all by itself will probably not translate when you add the full band to the mix. With the band coming on strong and "an effects rig with sample that we like to crank, sometimes organ or piano on top of that," try to get some low-mid meat and some percussive highs, and you might be good to go. Don't go nuts trying for extreme high end "air" or really full lows, and maybe a little midrange dip will help.
Set aside part of a rehearsal to experiment with the acoustic guitar. Can you borrow one or two other acoustic-electrics and do a little taste test?
Let us know as you get results. Best of luck!
I'm glad I could help a bit, and hopefully focus your search.
It seems the Cole Clark onboard preamp has a blender for the bridge/face pickups, no? That should give you some control, and along with the Feedback Buster, may be all you need.
My own take is to avoid outboard preamps, compressors, EQs, etc. as much as possible. Get it right with the guitar and the pickups, and you can plug into most PA systems with confidence. Considering that you have a "fairly loud" band, the role of the acoustic guitar is no longer "realistic." What will sound good when you play the acoustic all by itself will probably not translate when you add the full band to the mix. With the band coming on strong and "an effects rig with sample that we like to crank, sometimes organ or piano on top of that," try to get some low-mid meat and some percussive highs, and you might be good to go. Don't go nuts trying for extreme high end "air" or really full lows, and maybe a little midrange dip will help.
Set aside part of a rehearsal to experiment with the acoustic guitar. Can you borrow one or two other acoustic-electrics and do a little taste test?
Let us know as you get results. Best of luck!
Douglas Baldwin, coyote in residence
Music and writings
Psychedelic pop and ambient soundscapes a specialty
www.thecoyote.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Music and writings
Psychedelic pop and ambient soundscapes a specialty
www.thecoyote.org
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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