i'm the happy owner of a placid audio copperphone, and i would like to use it live.
i tried to use it twice during rehearsals with my new band, but faced dreadful feedback.
i know the mic was actually created for live applications, and i witnessed lots of bands were using it on stage (polyphonic spree, st vincent, lou barlow, raconteurs).
do you guys have any tips on how to avoid feedback when using the copperphone for live vocals ?
copperphone for live vocals
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Gentleman Jim
- buyin' a studio
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From the Placid Audio website:
CAN THE COPPERPHONE BE USED LIVE? WHAT ABOUT FEEDBACK?
Yes the it can be used live and many vocal performers use the Copperphone as a specialty effects mic in conjunction with their regular microphone. As with any microphone, feedback can be an issue. Results will vary depending on the application, the overall volume of your band, the quality of the sound system and the experience of engineer running the sound system. However very careful adjustment and equalization of the Copperphone in the monitors can yield acceptable results.
What all those bands have that you might not have would be that experienced sound engineer mentioned in the above paragraph. They also probably have a different eq curve on that channel in the monitors than they do in the house. Considering the frequency range of the Copperphone, you're working with a tool that's very different than what most microphones strive to be.
How is your PA at rehearsal set up? How is it eq'ed? Are you working with your nulls, or against them?
Not to be a total killjoy, but unless you're in a position to do proper sound checks with a competent sound mixer who is onboard with what you're trying to do, I'd avoid bringing this mic into a live performance situation. Otherwise, you're just asking for nasty feedback throughout the FOH and monitors, which is what your band will be remembered for as opposed to the music.
The same effect, (more or less), can be achieved with pretty much any vocal mic by high passing everything to about 600 and low passing to about 2k. I've done it a few times without any great problems. The advantage to this, (assuming you don't have that sympathetic sound mixer and that proper sound check), is that the sound mixer will probably have more confidence if you're using something s/he is familiar with, and won't think you're an over-affectaceous ponce. But you have to be aware that you most likely won't be able to get it very loud in the monitors. Sometimes art requires sacrifices.
CAN THE COPPERPHONE BE USED LIVE? WHAT ABOUT FEEDBACK?
Yes the it can be used live and many vocal performers use the Copperphone as a specialty effects mic in conjunction with their regular microphone. As with any microphone, feedback can be an issue. Results will vary depending on the application, the overall volume of your band, the quality of the sound system and the experience of engineer running the sound system. However very careful adjustment and equalization of the Copperphone in the monitors can yield acceptable results.
What all those bands have that you might not have would be that experienced sound engineer mentioned in the above paragraph. They also probably have a different eq curve on that channel in the monitors than they do in the house. Considering the frequency range of the Copperphone, you're working with a tool that's very different than what most microphones strive to be.
How is your PA at rehearsal set up? How is it eq'ed? Are you working with your nulls, or against them?
Not to be a total killjoy, but unless you're in a position to do proper sound checks with a competent sound mixer who is onboard with what you're trying to do, I'd avoid bringing this mic into a live performance situation. Otherwise, you're just asking for nasty feedback throughout the FOH and monitors, which is what your band will be remembered for as opposed to the music.
The same effect, (more or less), can be achieved with pretty much any vocal mic by high passing everything to about 600 and low passing to about 2k. I've done it a few times without any great problems. The advantage to this, (assuming you don't have that sympathetic sound mixer and that proper sound check), is that the sound mixer will probably have more confidence if you're using something s/he is familiar with, and won't think you're an over-affectaceous ponce. But you have to be aware that you most likely won't be able to get it very loud in the monitors. Sometimes art requires sacrifices.
well i had chosen to just drop the copperphone for our gigs to avoid giving any trouble to the venue sound engineer, but came accross placid audio's faq and the answer you just quoted and remembered the mic was made for live purposes in the first place.
maybe someone has experienced the same problem and came with a simple solution such as specific eq, using an amp vs. sending the signal through the monitors, in ear monitoring ?
i would really love to give the mic a second chance before i write it off..
maybe someone has experienced the same problem and came with a simple solution such as specific eq, using an amp vs. sending the signal through the monitors, in ear monitoring ?
i would really love to give the mic a second chance before i write it off..
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Gentleman Jim
- buyin' a studio
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- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:38 am
I apologize if my post gave the impression that I was in any way writing off the microphone. Nothing could be further from my intention. No less a personal inspiration of mine than Kevin Lemoine, the FOH engineer for Green Day, is listed as a Placid Audio user/customer.
My post was certainly colored by years of seeing bands try to do something left-of-center in a small club with either: an inexperienced/unknowledgeable sound mixer; or the stereotypical 41 year old grizzled club sound guy who's been mixing 4 bands a night, 5 nights a week for the last 14 years at the same dive bar. What results is rarely pretty.
On the other hand, as a 41 year old sound guy myself who likes to think that he bucks that stereotype, (mostly because I've only been doing that kind of mixing for the last 3 years, and I rarely mix more than 6 shows a month), I usually welcome things that are out of the ordinary.
Now, with all the backpedaling out of the way, I'll address your second post. Concerning specific eq, I would just start with a PA that's tuned for the entire band and the channel strip with the Copperphone flat. From there I might try the eq curve I mentioned in my first post, just in case any frequencies outside the range of the mic might cause frequencies in the range of the mic to feed back.
Avoid the temptation to reflexively make massive mid cuts on the mic, since those mids are the entire point of the mic. Wallow in the Copperphone-ness of it.
Plugging it into a guitar amp seems like a bad idea to me if you're looking primarily for the sound of the mic. You would most likely be adding an additional layer of distortion because of possible voltage and impedance mismatches, the preamp gain of the amp, and the properties of guitar amp eq circuitry versus mixing board eq circuitry. YMMV.
In ear monitors would be a fantastic solution if they're available. However, back to my example of the less-than-stellar sound mixer in a dive bar situation: will you have extra aux sends and snake returns to accomplish this? Will you be dealing with the kind of bozo who finds offensive frequencies by boosting one of the sweepable mids 15dB and going hunting? Because that's not who you want to be in control if you're wearing in ears, especially if s/he isn't wearing in ears.
I admit that I'm making some broad assumptions. I'm assuming you sometimes play places where they have multiple loud rock bands a night. I'm assuming that since you've already had feedback problems and you're asking here, that you're not an experience live sound mixer. I'm assuming that your band doesn't have a sound mixer who mixes every show for you. I'm assuming that you'd really like to get the Copperphone vocal as loud in the monitors as the regular vocal mic. I'm assuming that proper sound checks aren't a reality for most of your shows. For every assumption that's false, your situation improves significantly.
The more educated you are about the quirks of using the Copperphone in a live situation, the more you can educate house sound techs as to what to expect and what effect you'd like to create.
Despite my admittedly negative tone, I hope my posts are at least a little bit helpful. Honestly, I love stuff like this in a live setting. The only time left-of-center ideas become a bummer to me is when the performer doesn't understand that ultimately I don't control physics, and they don't know how to control their sonic science experiment. If there's an artistic effect that a musician wants, I'm all for it. What I'm unenthusiastic about is a night of feedback, crackles, ungodly line noise, and loud pops that endanger drivers.
My post was certainly colored by years of seeing bands try to do something left-of-center in a small club with either: an inexperienced/unknowledgeable sound mixer; or the stereotypical 41 year old grizzled club sound guy who's been mixing 4 bands a night, 5 nights a week for the last 14 years at the same dive bar. What results is rarely pretty.
On the other hand, as a 41 year old sound guy myself who likes to think that he bucks that stereotype, (mostly because I've only been doing that kind of mixing for the last 3 years, and I rarely mix more than 6 shows a month), I usually welcome things that are out of the ordinary.
Now, with all the backpedaling out of the way, I'll address your second post. Concerning specific eq, I would just start with a PA that's tuned for the entire band and the channel strip with the Copperphone flat. From there I might try the eq curve I mentioned in my first post, just in case any frequencies outside the range of the mic might cause frequencies in the range of the mic to feed back.
Avoid the temptation to reflexively make massive mid cuts on the mic, since those mids are the entire point of the mic. Wallow in the Copperphone-ness of it.
Plugging it into a guitar amp seems like a bad idea to me if you're looking primarily for the sound of the mic. You would most likely be adding an additional layer of distortion because of possible voltage and impedance mismatches, the preamp gain of the amp, and the properties of guitar amp eq circuitry versus mixing board eq circuitry. YMMV.
In ear monitors would be a fantastic solution if they're available. However, back to my example of the less-than-stellar sound mixer in a dive bar situation: will you have extra aux sends and snake returns to accomplish this? Will you be dealing with the kind of bozo who finds offensive frequencies by boosting one of the sweepable mids 15dB and going hunting? Because that's not who you want to be in control if you're wearing in ears, especially if s/he isn't wearing in ears.
I admit that I'm making some broad assumptions. I'm assuming you sometimes play places where they have multiple loud rock bands a night. I'm assuming that since you've already had feedback problems and you're asking here, that you're not an experience live sound mixer. I'm assuming that your band doesn't have a sound mixer who mixes every show for you. I'm assuming that you'd really like to get the Copperphone vocal as loud in the monitors as the regular vocal mic. I'm assuming that proper sound checks aren't a reality for most of your shows. For every assumption that's false, your situation improves significantly.
The more educated you are about the quirks of using the Copperphone in a live situation, the more you can educate house sound techs as to what to expect and what effect you'd like to create.
Despite my admittedly negative tone, I hope my posts are at least a little bit helpful. Honestly, I love stuff like this in a live setting. The only time left-of-center ideas become a bummer to me is when the performer doesn't understand that ultimately I don't control physics, and they don't know how to control their sonic science experiment. If there's an artistic effect that a musician wants, I'm all for it. What I'm unenthusiastic about is a night of feedback, crackles, ungodly line noise, and loud pops that endanger drivers.
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MisterMark
- gettin' sounds
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Froggy,
I'm sorry you are having trouble trying to get the Copperphone to work with your live performances... We got your email the other day, but before someone could respond to it our mail server went down. It's still down and we don't know exactly when it will be up and running again.
In the meantime, did you get the instruction sheet that was shipped with your mic? It has detailed instructions on how best to use the Copperphone live. When our mail server is up, I'll send you another copy.
Gentlemen Jim is right though... there are a lot of factors to consider when using the Copperphone live, especially if you don't have your own sound engineer or playing through your run of the mill, let than ideal, dive bar PA. I don't know the dynamics or the sound of your band, but your best bet, considering you do not having your own engineer, is to not have the Copperphone in the monitors at all if you can make such a compromise. I know it's not the answer you probably want to hear, but believe it or not, you would be surprised at how much of it you can actually hear coming through the house. It's frequency range can really cut through. But if your band is very loud and aggressive sounding, chances are this approach is not going to work for you either.
Please don't give up hope! We will work with you until we get a solution. I can also get you in touch with a few of the experienced engineers that frequently use it with success. I'm sure they can give you some useful tips too.
Hope that helps,
Mark Pirro
http://placidaudio.com
I'm sorry you are having trouble trying to get the Copperphone to work with your live performances... We got your email the other day, but before someone could respond to it our mail server went down. It's still down and we don't know exactly when it will be up and running again.
In the meantime, did you get the instruction sheet that was shipped with your mic? It has detailed instructions on how best to use the Copperphone live. When our mail server is up, I'll send you another copy.
Gentlemen Jim is right though... there are a lot of factors to consider when using the Copperphone live, especially if you don't have your own sound engineer or playing through your run of the mill, let than ideal, dive bar PA. I don't know the dynamics or the sound of your band, but your best bet, considering you do not having your own engineer, is to not have the Copperphone in the monitors at all if you can make such a compromise. I know it's not the answer you probably want to hear, but believe it or not, you would be surprised at how much of it you can actually hear coming through the house. It's frequency range can really cut through. But if your band is very loud and aggressive sounding, chances are this approach is not going to work for you either.
Please don't give up hope! We will work with you until we get a solution. I can also get you in touch with a few of the experienced engineers that frequently use it with success. I'm sure they can give you some useful tips too.
Hope that helps,
Mark Pirro
http://placidaudio.com
Placid Audio - Home of the Copperphone
"Turn it up till it squeals then back it down a hair"
"Take these pills and pull down your pants... um, I mean, here take these pills"
"Turn it up till it squeals then back it down a hair"
"Take these pills and pull down your pants... um, I mean, here take these pills"
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joel hamilton
- zen recordist
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I use them in the studio, and I have used them for the book of knots live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q061EWhqhNQ
You can see it in use there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q061EWhqhNQ
You can see it in use there.
thank you all for your answers, it definitely gave me the will to try and experiment
mistermark, i can't get ahold of the instruction sheet you mention, that would be great if you could send me another one!
joel, thank you for the link, i guess i will have to add the book of knots to the list of cool bands using the copperphone live.
based on your experience though, do you have any tips on how you managed to set it up for live vocals ?
anyway, i will bring it back to rehearsal this week to try things out and will keep you all posted
mistermark, i can't get ahold of the instruction sheet you mention, that would be great if you could send me another one!
joel, thank you for the link, i guess i will have to add the book of knots to the list of cool bands using the copperphone live.
based on your experience though, do you have any tips on how you managed to set it up for live vocals ?
anyway, i will bring it back to rehearsal this week to try things out and will keep you all posted
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joel hamilton
- zen recordist
- Posts: 8876
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 pm
- Location: NYC/Brooklyn
- Contact:
It just works.froggy wrote:thank you all for your answers, it definitely gave me the will to try and experiment
mistermark, i can't get ahold of the instruction sheet you mention, that would be great if you could send me another one!
joel, thank you for the link, i guess i will have to add the book of knots to the list of cool bands using the copperphone live.
based on your experience though, do you have any tips on how you managed to set it up for live vocals ?
anyway, i will bring it back to rehearsal this week to try things out and will keep you all posted
Seriously. The sound of the thing is inherently cool, so when someone puts it up, it will sound cool. The rest of it is up to you... like if you are getting all freakish about the amount you want it in the monitors, or if your band has STUPID stage volume, then you will need to do some trickery, otherwise it just works.
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vikingrecording
- gettin' sounds
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biasvoltage
- steve albini likes it
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studilaroche
- studio intern
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I use the Copperphone live with one of my bands all the time. As others have noted, with high stage volumes you'll run into feedback pretty quickly. One effective trick is to use some slapback on the Copperphone. Also, when setting up I pay careful attention to the placement of the mic relative to the wedge, and as others have noted, little to no Copperphone in the monitor can help alot, too. You will certainly hear it through the mains, if they're working 
Good luck.
Good luck.
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