Mixing Console Recommendations

[Matt C.]

i've been thinking about saving up and buying a new mixing console for the studio, and i need some advice to figure out whether i can actually get what i want for a reasonable price, and some recommendations for specific models to look for.

right now i am using a Tascam m520. i do most of my recording into Nuendo and mix ITB, but i am trying to make some changes, including :
1. tracking to 8 track tape more often, and
2. when mixing on the computer, running the tracks out to the board for summing, then the 2trk mix back into the computer.

my problems with the Tascam m520 are: almost all the connections are RCA unbalanced, there is no master L/R buss (everything has to go through the 8-bus system), the monitor section is setup in a kind of weird way that can make life hard sometimes, and the channel EQ is not particularly helpful.

the problem is i think what i want out of a board is probably not attainable within my price range (maybe $2-3k). i need something with lots of signal routing options (like a mackie 8-buss except less shitty), decent preamps, EQ that is very flexible (maybe two fully parametic bands, plus one or two fixed? am i just dreaming here?). it also needs 8-buses, and at least 16 tracks, maybe 24 if possible. i'd also prefer to get a board that is old rather than new (new mixing boards are straight up ugly), but no big deal there.

or, i can just keep the m520 and deal with it. i've read postive things about yamaha pm1000s, and old Soundcraft boards. other than those i'm kind of clueless as to what to look for. is something like an old 16ch Neotek board way too expensive?

[kslight]

If you are repair savvy or friends with a tech and happen to find one locally that you can pickup and inspect (versus get lucky on eBay and pay out the ass for shipping) I think you can easily get an old Soundcraft board in your price range.
You can also find a used Midas Venice in your price range.


Not sure what you mean by a Mackie 8 bus but less shitty...I think for within your budget that isn't a terrible console...maybe not life changing but really not unusable. The pres are actually decent and the EQ is very flexible. Me personally I was at the same predicament and I said well...I can either spend $350 now on a used Behringer MX8000 (aka direct copy of Mackie 24. or wait and save up for a $3k+ console that is only somewhat better. I would rather spend the leftover money on outboard compressors and preamps and decent mics, then when I've got all that stuff I can look again at getting a real console.

So the way I looked at it was no matter if I spent $350 or $3000 I still wasn't really going to get everything I want out of a console (ie:still want outboard pres and eqs) so until I can afford a real console that I was better off using my cheap board.

[Matt C.]

i don't know, i had a mackie 8-bus for a while and i didn't really like how the preamps or the EQ sounded. i liked all the features. i mainly got rid of it because i was able to sell it for $800 and buy the tascam m520 for $300. so that worked out okay.

i feel like my biggest concern with any console is going to be the EQ. i've been totally spoiled by always using super flexible ITB EQs, and i don't want to have to buy like ten channels of good outboard EQ and ignore the EQs on the mixer. seems wasteful. but i don't know if there are many consoles with really serious fully parametic EQ sections on them. which makes me think maybe i'm better off just sticking with what i have instead of buying a new mixer that isn't quite what i want.

[kslight]

In that case maybe what you really need isn't a full console but maybe a couple channels of good pres and/or EQ that you really want. I can definitely see wanting better EQ but I don't typically find myself needing a great EQ on every channel, or even on a lot of channels... I think just getting a couple solid EQs for the stuff that needs it and use the board EQ for everything else would be a reasonable compromise.

[Sean Sullivan]

Depending on where you live and how hard you look, you might be able to get a good Soundcraft, Harrison, MCI, or Trident for that amount of money. You'd just need to be handy with a soldering iron to bring it back to 100%. Heck, if you are willing to install some new components you can make them scream.

I would avoid a Mackie, Ghost, or a new Toft. You can get consoles that used to be $60,000 for $2-3,000 these days.

[The Scum]

If you're shopping used, some of it comes down to luck. Sometimes you walk into great deals...you find the TV station that is upgrading, has already amortized the value of the board, and just needs it gone in the 12 hour window between it's removal and its replacement's installation.

There are also sows ears to watch out for - the above desk, but that's never seen regular tech work, and has been an ashtray for the engineer for 20 years...if you don't do your own tech work, be extra vigilant.

Fully parametric EQ is rare on consoles to begin with...SSL and high-end Amek come to mind...I'm sure there are others. The same with fully balanced interfacing. Very few desks have ever had everything completely balanced.

Yamaha PM1000's are absolute dinosaurs. Cool sounding preamps, bizarre EQ. But only 4 bus (with no additional stereo bus), no channel inserts, no line inputs, no direct outputs, no mute switches. I'm working my way through merging two 16 channel ones into a usable 32 input board...it's a labor of love, and not for the uninitiated.

Some of the older Soundcrafts might fit the bill...like a 600 or 6000. There were some deployed with very complete internal patchbays...though they're all pushing 20+ years years old now, and the patchpoints may be worn out.

Neotek are cool desks...you might find one in your price point.

A Trident 65 might fit, also. The circuitry in 'em is very similar to the Soundcrafts. Given a choice, I'd rather do tech work on a Soundcraft - Trident made some design decisions that mean they don't age as gracefully.

[snatchman]

SOT..I may have my DDA " S" Console for sale shortly ( 24 x 4x 2)..Recapped/modded Masterbuss, Modded PSU, and a stock PSU..Give me a PM if this may interest you....

[xonlocust]

on the cheaper end, i have a soundtracs mr http://www.studiosystems.co.uk/soundtracs/mrx.php - should be able to find one for considerably less. similar to a soundcraft 600b - older and on the cheaper end of the line - but still pretty usable. for a minute there i was considering upgrading to a quartz http://www.studiosystems.co.uk/soundtracs/quartz.php - but i eventually backed off.

maybe also look out for a tac scorpion.... if you can afford it/find one i'd go MCI. i'd love an MCI at home - they have a great sound. seem to have a good color for the buck thing going on. neoteks of course also sound great but are a little cleaner sounding than MCIs IMO. neoteks also are unbalanced IO on the channel level. balanced on the busses/mains IIRC - still sound great of course.

[klangtone]

I have a 16 channel Toft and if you saved up a bit more you could afford one as well.

I don't know what Mr. Sullivan's experience is with the Tofts to make him not recommend them. True, you are not getting a made in the USA product with the attention to detail and robustness one would ideally like. But, you are getting a pretty darn good mixer for the money. It's pretty damn flexible in terms of I/O. The pre's are decent (kinda dark and thick in a good way). The EQ is certainly more musical, interesting, and immediate than any plug in I've used. For things that need something more surgical or specific, you can always go with a good para-graphic EQ plug-in.
I'm by no means a guy that has mixed on many consoles or heard all sorts of different EQ's. But for my money, the Toft delivered and saved me the headache of tracking down a well-kept vintage board or spending hours with the soldering iron fixing up a lemon. Could be a fun project, but it's not exactly the way I'd like to spend my time.

I've done a few records now on the Toft and I'm convinced its presence is helping. It's adding some glue, some grit, and some excitement. And it keeps me using my outboard gear more because with everything on a patchbay there's really little excuse for being lazy and reaching for the plug-in (which I still do sometimes... but, often because I don't have a HW equivalent).

Roy

[Nick Sevilla]

i don't know, i had a mackie 8-bus for a while and i didn't really like how the preamps or the EQ sounded. i liked all the features. i mainly got rid of it because i was able to sell it for $800 and buy the tascam m520 for $300. so that worked out okay.

i feel like my biggest concern with any console is going to be the EQ. i've been totally spoiled by always using super flexible ITB EQs, and i don't want to have to buy like ten channels of good outboard EQ and ignore the EQs on the mixer. seems wasteful. but i don't know if there are many consoles with really serious fully parametic EQ sections on them. which makes me think maybe i'm better off just sticking with what i have instead of buying a new mixer that isn't quite what i want.

I may come off as an a*hole, so here goes :

In the audio world, please use your EARS, not your WALLET to make decisions about sound equipment.

Sometimes cheap is good, sometimes not.

I recommend you look at Allen & Heath GL Series. I own a GL2800-32 channel, and it is a dream.

Cheers

[Dakota]

+1 above advice, all good stuff.

Agreed, PM1000 you'd likely find even more frustrating in terms of routing and EQ options that you are craving. The dealio with those is they sound very good if you can stand to work within their limits, and if you can deal with lots of soldering gun time and tinkering.

Older soundcrafts, yep, and neotek, tac, midas... the whole list above. Get on your local area craigslists and keep on it every day with a list of search terms. Give yourself two months to keep a net out - it often takes that long to net the dream item at the dream deal.

+1 soundtracs, I'm rocking one. A perennial tapeop favorite for the mid niche. Has all the modern routing and EQ you specify. Nice sweep EQ, btw.

+1 you should additionally get one or a few outboard specialized parametrics. If you are now used to ITB EQ plugs, pretty much no board EQ in your price range is going to have that level of full Q and frequency control, and that many bands. Outboard EQs can. No matter how cool one's board is, it's the OTB norm to also have some specialized outboard EQ on top of that.

[jgimbel]

i don't know, i had a mackie 8-bus for a while and i didn't really like how the preamps or the EQ sounded. i liked all the features. i mainly got rid of it because i was able to sell it for $800 and buy the tascam m520 for $300. so that worked out okay.

i feel like my biggest concern with any console is going to be the EQ. i've been totally spoiled by always using super flexible ITB EQs, and i don't want to have to buy like ten channels of good outboard EQ and ignore the EQs on the mixer. seems wasteful. but i don't know if there are many consoles with really serious fully parametic EQ sections on them. which makes me think maybe i'm better off just sticking with what i have instead of buying a new mixer that isn't quite what i want.

I may come off as an a*hole, so here goes :

In the audio world, please use your EARS, not your WALLET to make decisions about sound equipment.

Sometimes cheap is good, sometimes not.

I recommend you look at Allen & Heath GL Series. I own a GL2800-32 channel, and it is a dream.

Cheers

I might come off an as an ass too, and I'm not really in a place to be spending thousands of dollars on a console, but I'm just curious, how possible is it to use your ears when picking a console? It's easy to use your ears when buying a guitar that you can try yourself, or hear other people play, or a microphone that you can test or have heard many times before. But with a console, it doesn't seem you'd be able to go to a store and try out everything in their console section. It seems like you kind of just have to learn as much as you can about a console, then hope one comes up used or go buy a new one. In that case it's even easier to think the more you spend the better you'll be getting. I think a lot of those "it's cheap but it is actually awesome" situations rely on something being cheap enough you won't be losing much money by just getting it and trying it even if it sucks, which doesn't seem like something folks would be doing much when spending thousands on a console. So maybe you'd rely more on what other people say about a board, and that part of us that does say "you get what you pay for". But I've never looked to buy a console. I have one but I don't have it set up yet, it's sitting patiently in the corner of my room (which is killing me!).

[E.Bennett]

most importantly the console you choose should be in good shape. whenever you find a console, take a signal generator or microphone and a pair of powered speakers or headphones. test every mic/line input, twist every pot, and slide every fader. if there is crackling all over, you probably will want to walk away. crackling isn't always a "cleaning up" issue. it is often indicative of electrical issues like bad solder joints, bad caps, dc going where it shouldn't, etc.

consoles in your price range that i have used and can recommend, if in good working order, would be tac matchless and magnum, soundtracs solo logic and topaz, and the peavey amr series. all of these have similar features and very usable eq. i'm sure there are very decent soundcraft and a&h desks, but i don't have much experience on their budget minded desks.

[Matt C.]

thanks for all the recommendations. i'm still not sure if i want/need to take the plunge yet, but i'll definitely keep an eye our for these boards.

[Harry]

heres a great board right in your area.

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

I have this same console and if this guy would drive it down to Chicago I would buy another one.

I think they sound great,plenty of routing options,way underpriced IMO.

2 or 3 k gives you a ton of options but you could get this and score some sweet outboard gear.