For years I have been chasing the Industry sound.

[mvollrath]

It sounds like your kind of music is the kind that people need to sit down and watch to be appreciated. But everyone is talking about playing at clubs and places where people don't give a shit about nice music. My question is, what venues are good for entertainment that people will pay attention to, and how do you get to play there? It might involve starting from scratch in a way, because these are not the places your 10-piece band has played and you might not have the connections to set something up yet.

One way to get in the door is to open for bands that play where you want to play. Meet other performers and get your album in their hands. Let them do the business with the promoters, then introduce yourself after you've played your awesome set. Get your stuff on the merch table. You will probably play for cheap or for free for a while, but consider it an investment.

You're trying to do something that many other bands are learning to do at the same time: become a highly regarded act without the support of a major label or other pen-pushers. It is a new frontier, and like any pioneer you will need to be very resourceful to succeed. You will find that many fellow travelers are sympathetic to your situation, and some are not.

[anthonypayton]

Mvollrath:
That is basically what Tamara(my wife) was saying yesterday. I keep playing places where people come to drink and party vs, where people come to see a live show. I think Manchesters could be that place, if they presented themselves that way. The band is average at best. Good songs but an average delivery... It is hard enough to get people out of the house. From my experience, the younger crowd that is out "looking" are the ones that are in the clubs. But grown folk, 30 and up, they have kids and jobs and blah blah blah. Everything around here is Blues, Metal, Rock, Jazz, and Hip Hop. My music director plays out all the time and he says noone is doing what I am doing but it is needed.

Tamara was like, you need to go to Nashville to play, I was like I am thinking more Atlanta. I asked a guy that gigs in Nashville, and he said no one gets paid to play... you pay to play to hopefully get discovered. Nashville is a Country Music hub. David Foster said that Country Music has the best songwriters. But for me to get my foot in the door as a country songwriter would be super hard vs me building my fan base and people coming to me for songs.

John (my music director) thinks the eatery's(sp) would be the best places to play. Pizza joints, restaurants and cafes... Hince no sound systems... And those are the places I have played before... Manchesters is perfect... I just think they need to change their approach. People that want to sit down and listen to music don't want to hear average. That is what I tell all the people that audition for me. You can't fake R&B. The people that love it, know what it is supposed to sound like. They have a taste for it... Everyone can cook ribs, but I can't eat everyone's ribs... I have a standard when it comes to good food. If the food is average, I am not coming back unless I am in the area and I am hungry. But for places that I know are consistant and can throw down I will go a few exits over to get a meal...
I mean if they are already in the club they won't complain. But they are not going to go out of their way to come back...

Great post, very informative as all of the others have been... All these post are not in vein... I am writing everything down. Even the cursings LOL j/k I only got chewed once, but it was still productive...

[anthonypayton]

in addition, I started playing out about 7 years ago. My first show was in a place called reality tuesdays in Cincy. When I walked in there were about 10 people in the cafe'. As I was setting up you could hear all the mummering and people walking out the door... I don't mean for this to sound tastless or whatever, but, it is what it is... People were leaving because they thought I was a rapper. For some reason when people do ask or I tell, hey I am a musician. the first thing that comes out of their mouth is: are you a rapper... No I am a musician. I love hip hop, I like the artistry. but why does every black musician have to be a damn rapper... You ever heard of Motown...Thats like me saying to every white musician you must sing country...
Anyway... as I was setting up people were walking out. But an hour later when I started playing, people that had planned on getting coffee and leaving sat and stayed for the show. So it went from 10 people to 3 people then from 3 people to about 15 people. So I think people want to hear it...Like you said, it has to be the right venue. As I was walking around and talking to a few people they asked me, are you really singing or are you lip syncing. I am like no mam that is all me...Then its, I could have sworn that was the radio... I get that comment all the time. And that is what I strive for, making it sound just like the album. With that being said. noone can make it sound like the album, but if you attempt to, it will be close enough for the listener to recognize. If you want to change a song, just write a new song. People want to hear what they are used to hearing, putting a spin on it is one thing, but it better be familiar... or you would have been better off playing an original. ...

[Nick Sevilla]

Mvollrath:
That is basically what Tamara(my wife) was saying yesterday. I keep playing places where people come to drink and party vs, where people come to see a live show. I think Manchesters could be that place, if they presented themselves that way. The band is average at best. Good songs but an average delivery... It is hard enough to get people out of the house. From my experience, the younger crowd that is out "looking" are the ones that are in the clubs. But grown folk, 30 and up, they have kids and jobs and blah blah blah. Everything around here is Blues, Metal, Rock, Jazz, and Hip Hop. My music director plays out all the time and he says noone is doing what I am doing but it is needed.

Tamara was like, you need to go to Nashville to play, I was like I am thinking more Atlanta. I asked a guy that gigs in Nashville, and he said no one gets paid to play... you pay to play to hopefully get discovered. Nashville is a Country Music hub. David Foster said that Country Music has the best songwriters. But for me to get my foot in the door as a country songwriter would be super hard vs me building my fan base and people coming to me for songs.

John (my music director) thinks the eatery's(sp) would be the best places to play. Pizza joints, restaurants and cafes... Hince no sound systems... And those are the places I have played before... Manchesters is perfect... I just think they need to change their approach. People that want to sit down and listen to music don't want to hear average. That is what I tell all the people that audition for me. You can't fake R&B. The people that love it, know what it is supposed to sound like. They have a taste for it... Everyone can cook ribs, but I can't eat everyone's ribs... I have a standard when it comes to good food. If the food is average, I am not coming back unless I am in the area and I am hungry. But for places that I know are consistant and can throw down I will go a few exits over to get a meal...
I mean if they are already in the club they won't complain. But they are not going to go out of their way to come back...

Great post, very informative as all of the others have been... All these post are not in vein... I am writing everything down. Even the cursings LOL j/k I only got chewed once, but it was still productive...

Hi Anthony,

You could focus your energy on other things, rather than try to change the way a venue conducts it's business. Unless you own the venue, that is.

And as far as playing with an "average" band... don't. Can you play the piano and sing at the same time? Do that instead.

You have a Music Director? Wow, that must be nice. How can you afford that, if you're complaining about how hard it is to make it in the music biz? I'm confused now...

Cheers

[anthonypayton]

My Team:
Ben (Consultant)
John (Music Director)
Matt Cusson(Brian Mcknights Keyboard player)
Keith Martin (Producer and Arranger)
Daniel Bartak (Producer & Arranger)
Jan Turlenko (Bass and Guitars)
Aaron King (audio and engineering)
Debbie Cole (publicist)
Brandie Encinias(my assistant, runs myspace and facebook for me, and anything else I ask)

These are the names that I may use and I look up too... They have all proven themselves to be very very valuble assets and great friends.

noeq:
I call John my music director because he teaches me piano and designs/ helps plan my shows. So I write a song or want to perform a song, and he arranges it for me. In a way that I want to play it. When I first met John, he told me to play for him... He giggles, "brother what do you want me to do for you. You can play well, I don't know what I am going to do for you. I gave me my spill on Mcknight, Frank Mccomb, George Duke. I am long winded so I got all the details out. He said, I can't teach you to play like those guys, (i exhale in sadness) he waits a few seconds to let it set in, then he says- but, I can teach you how to think like those guys. He says, give me a song you like from one of these players. I told him Left Alone by Frank Mccomb.
I feel like I can hear anything, but for some reason I couldn't figure this song out. I had been working on it from time to time for at least a year. Daniel who arranges for plays can hear anything, he couldn't figure it out all the way. He got some of it but he said it would take him some time. Now John pulls up the youtube video, starts humming and writing out chords. didn't touch the piano once. He hands me the sheet after about 5 minutes and says play that. I be damned if wasn't the song chord for chord. The he says stop. Play me a C chord (bing). ok now play me an F chord (bing). he said now play me a Bbmaj7-13. I was like uhhh ok ummm. before I could get the chord under my hand he yells out play me a Gsus 4-9... Now did I know these chords, yes, but could I play them as fast as he was saying them No. Then he says whats the 6th of Ab. quick quick, what is the 4th of Db... He said that is where you are lacking. These guys that you look up to can bang out chords on cue. You have to get there before you can even think about writing or playing like that. That is when he had me... I knew that he would take me to another level.

When the band named me the music director I was all giddy. When I told John about he explained what a music director does. He told me that he thinks the band is a distraction. But at the same time I think it gives me experience- talking to the crowd, transitioning from one song to another, which is my weakest point. I can play and sing all day, but my interaction is whack.
Therefore I said, well essentially John you are my music director, he said you CAN call me that...
No one every said I was broke... I have just blown money in the past. Now my entire out look on spending money is that it has to make money for me. I just take my time and research more now before I spend money. Thats all... Too many times I have listened to a few people and didn't ask all the question I should have asked, spent the money anyway and came up short... Now don't get that twisted that I believe I am not going to lose money on the way... I don't mind doing business... I just try to cover all my bases.... thats all...
I think every great musician has had a mentor/teacher..etc... John does that for me. In the past I haven't had that... It has just been me talking to people and those people hateing on everyone else in the city. I mean if you want to sell me on your studio, or buying your production skills... When you put a CD in of your work, it better bang... While you are talking bad about all the other studios in town.
When I first sat down with John after the amazing 5 min transcription he told me to start singing a song ...and played along with me, real vanilla arrangment. Then he said now I am going jazz it up, like I think you want it to sound. Now if I had my eyes closed I wouldn't be able to tell if that was Brian Mcknight or John. and he isn't even a Mcknight fan, but the playing style is the same. It's just jazz. I was sold. He didn't have to say anything. Never talks about other people he is humble and he is amazing. So I call him my music director.

As for the club- Ben(my consultant-owns one of the biggest self owned record stores in the country, and he is a black millioniare LOL) He has been in the industry for a long time. He curses me out all the time, not in a bad way but in a constructive way. He wont put any money behind me until I have a solid gigging situation. He told me a few weeks ago "AP, I can give you $5,000 a week, but what is that going to do for you?" You know why I got money, Cause I know how to keep my shit" These n---- come in here asking me for money all the time. But I am not going to put money behind something when I know its going to put you right back to square one. Get out and start playing and have people wanting to come and see you. Everything that Ben has said has come to pass. He gives it to me straight, and pulls no punches. I love that. You can motivate without being mean. I think sometimes people don't realize that. He doesn't get into the studio stuff. He is all about me getting out and performing. His words are F the studio.

Ben told me the same thing... Don't worry about how they run their business. The only thing is: they label me the featured artist. I am all over the windows posters and shit, which is cool. I feel kinda starry sometimes. Right now that is the only consistant outlet I have to play. My thing is I don't want to invite my fan base or promote it if we are going to sound like shit... a train wreck for real. Debbie, my publicist(she ownes the club) amazing woman, knows everyone, and delivers. Every big show that comes in town(for the black community,) I say that cause I didn't want yall thinking shes planning for every band, like Metallica or Charlie Daniels. She is a part of it.
Her main focus is the club not me, which is cool, (i get in where I can fit in) But when she brought me on board and I performed for her. Next thing you know I am on posters, radio shows, the local news, in a matter of days. She had done more for me in weeks than I had gotten done in years. A few problems, the band isn't that good, and the club is in a pretty bad area.

I don't burn bridges cause you never know which ones your going to have to cross.
She wants to have a house band. That is her main priority. She has pulled me aside after every show and tells me.... you need to find a way to take over the band. You need to be out front all the time. But thats not my band and she isn't going to get rid of them. The band has been playing together for years, and then I come along, and they are supposed to just change because I am the featured artist. I don't think thats right.
Now Debbie loves music and band setting, but she doesn't have the ear to hear the mess ups. I have tried to explain it to her, she goes to the band leader and tells him my concerns and the band leader tells her what she wants to hear, and we are back at square one.
Like I said they named me the music director. I sat here for three days and charted out 40 songs. took me all day for three days... Hand written for bass, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and horns. I need the exercise anyway, transposing and such. I show up to rehearsal and find out they can't read a lead sheet. I asked them if they could, they all said yes... Yeah ok,
The club is a gold mine. It has the "potential" to be a great place for grown folk. If I had another outlet, my time would be very limited for them. I am just trying to make a great situation out of and average situation. The biggest enemy of great is being good.
Keep in mind. I have been doing this for a long time. I am just trying to get better at what I am doing. Being humble or listening to peoples input can sometimes be mistaken for ignorance. But just like I said before. I come to you guys because you may see what I see in a different light. I add your input to my knowledge base and it makes me more prepared. And now I am changing my sails from studio guy to live performer. And it is a little foreign to me. I do a show every other other month. But I have never been a gigging person that does it on the regular.

In summary: Noeq
Ben and John have both said what you said... leave the band out. But I am using the situation to get better at communicating with the crowed....
And I don't have the type music director like a big band I would guess. John is my music teacher and he arranges for me. I just call him my music director
Debbie isn't that type of publicist that you pay $2,500 a month. Its just when she promotes me I am all over the news and stuff but really she is promoting the event, and me as the featured performer.

I know I get long winded sometimes. But one thing I have learned is this. You can say one thing, but 20 people will hear it 20 different ways. I just try to write so everyone will understand. It may be something they can grow from...

[EggyToast]

I think your approach is good. Since you're trying to make this essentially a career, you need to look at everything you do with it as moving you towards that career. The band may not be what you need musically, but there's more to being in a band -- playing together, listening to others, being in front of people, and above all actually performing. It's similar to singing in the shower vs. singing in front of a microphone -- you might sound *awesome* in the shower, but when the mic is recording you do it differently and it's not as good.

I've got a friend who does singer/songwriter stuff, and when he's singing and playing guitar he's pretty good. When he goes to record guitar by itself, though, he plays a little rougher and sometimes misses cues because he's used to singing. When he's singing sometimes the same thing happens because he's used to having the guitar there to "feel" the music. For him, he just needs the practice. He'd be fine if he was playing live but since we're recording some stuff he has a few things to work on ;D

For me, as I mentioned earlier, my problem with music was coming up with the original ideas, and for me the solution was to practice with a real instrument in a very holistic way -- not just writing songs, but becoming a competent player in all aspects of the instrument. I'm still learning, I'm certainly not an expert, but it has definitely helped move me towards my goal.

Do you have time to be in two bands? Lots of musicians will be in one band as a "backup guy" who isn't in front, simply for the experience, and then have another band where they're more in charge. That's especially true for artists who try to do different genres of music.

I think beyond the playing live thing, I think you need to work more on taking your mixes through to completion. Not every song will be a #1, but if you get stuck on finding a "perfect sound" the song never gets finished, and the experience (there's that word again) you gain from mixing, using effects, and so on, never comes up. To go back to my example, last night I recorded the rhythm guitar for my friend above and by itself the guitar is really full, a little overwhelming, and really, really boring ;D But adding a drum track makes it more balanced. Tonight I'm going to record bass and probably adjust the mix on the guitar and it'll probably sound even better, and when my friend adds vocals it'll really mesh together. The parts by themselves may not be perfect, but thankfully we don't listen to parts by themselves when we listen to a finished song.

[Nick Sevilla]

"1. Get polos made for me and my team( I wear all my football stuff, so why shouldn't I wear my own brand?) "

Now that is what I call being non-focussed.

FOCUS, Anthony, FOCUS.

Cheers

[anthonypayton]

Noeq:
LMAO..

[anthonypayton]

Went to a friends studio today... And oh my... he had a logic set up... and he has a great, great, great sound... He said that everyone in Nashville is stressing pre-amps:
Start with the singer, if the singer is bad, get a new singer, then pre-amp, then the converters... A great pre-amp can compensate for and average converter, then your mic.

He is doing some Christian work, and a little pop... but wow.... Logic has some really good sounds too.

[jgimbel]

Logic has some really good sounds too.

Huh?

[dsw]

OK I know this is not hip, but personally I'd love a polo shirt with the logo of the band I was in. Pick me Anthony, I'll take a polo.

And while I'm here, I'd like to go out on a limb here and say that MY advice to you would be to stop looking up to McKnight and who all else. Look inside of Anthony and find out what makes you tick and what makes you the happiest when you play it and play that. It's good to honor your heroes, but a true artist blazes a new path. Instead of thinking about how to sound like "industry" think about how to sound like "Anthony."

OK. I'll shut up now.

[anthonypayton]

DSW:
I am definatly feeling what you are saying... I look up to those guys because there style is jazz. It is universal cause you can hear all of the chord changes. I like Mcknight because he is the only piano player that can sing and play equally great... Not say there aren't other guys that do it... But Brian has a mix of Gospel, Pop, Jazz... and that is where I want to be. There is know way that I want to sound like Brian. That is who everyone compares me to. But I know I dont' sound like him. They just familiarize him with me... Singer Piano player. The theory he uses is what I am after. When to subsitute chords, how to subsitute chords. No one at that level learns that by just knowing. You have to have training of some sort. If I would have found John Bizianes when I was younger it may have been a different story. But when I was in highschool, I was showing my teaches things. When I was college, I was getting asked question by seniors that were majoring in piano. I say this because I didn't have anyone that could teach me what I wanted to learn. Therefore I had to find someone. And B. Mcknight was right up that alley...

As for industry sound; I still have a studio that I charge people to record in. And I put out decent stuff for rappers etc... But I want to give them a little more bang for there buck... That is where all the industry stuff comes in. And plus I want my demo's to sound the part. My demo's play two rolls. 1. for press kits, 2, two use as a source of income with CD sales.

jgimbel:
I am saying Logic has some good VST's.. and plug ins' To me they sound really good... Electric piano, drum samples... They just sound really clean and a little organic at the same time... That is what i meant