For years I have been chasing the Industry sound.

[anthonypayton]

I am a singer that plays piano, produces and sings mostly Soul, R&B, and Gospel. Really whatever sounds good with my voice I will cover. I have a home studio that I live in. Trying to learn EQ, Compression, and all the other tools to become a tight engineneer.

Tapeop has been good to me with all the tips, tricks and advice, thanks guys. One of my biggest dilemas was getting my vocals to sound like industry recorded artists. Mainly Brian Mcknight.

Most of my questions were asking: how to make vocals sound in your face, how to get background vocals to cut through a mix, how to get that airy sound that Brian and other R&B greats have. I have the control, tone and range, but, I can't display that with my recording skills.

All the info I received was awesome and helpful. They touched on, getting a new mic, pre-amp, A/D converter, get the room treated, learn compression, learn eq. All those tips were wonderful and I believe those are things that will soon be accomplished.

Here it is. I have bought every CD that Brian has made. Well to my surprise, I pop his new CD in. Evolution of a man. And from the first note and run of the song. (I was driving and almost swerved off the road) I actually pulled over to listen.

I knew that sound all to well. Why, cause it is what my vocals sound like when I record. It literally sounded like he recorded his vocals in my studio. You could easily tell he couldn't have recorded these vocals in a big studio. I just knew he couldn't have.

Brian has a show that comes on at about 2:00 am where I live. He was talking about the CD. He was taking the cameras, and the people on a tour through his home. That's when he started to mention the fact that the CD wasn't recorded like his last 10 or 11. This time he did everything in his new home studio. The camera showed is kids working on the equipment, showed his vocal room and everything.

I have always made the statement: its more about knowledge than it is about gear, but you need both. My point is; if you take me to Quincy Jones studio, and bring Quincy Jones to mine. I would be willingl to bet Quincy could get a better sound out of my studio than I could out of his. So if I went out and spent $1,000,000 on studio just to have the gear. I still wouldn't have the chops to produce a great sounding CD. Maybe I am wrong but, I would still put my money on Quincy.

Which leads me to my next post. "How Much of a Difference will it really make?"

[drumsound]

Every element makes a difference. Room, gear, experience EVERYTHING.

[millzners]

I think the talent around the musicians makes all the difference, and could have made the most difference in the example you were referencing.

This is probably a out of left-field analogy, but I like the Smashing Pumpkins older recordings when Moulder was mixing, and Flood was producing. Now Corgan (the singer/songwriter for the Pumpkins if you're not familiar) does his own production, records his albums in his own personal studio, etc. The records sound like ass. Their B-sides from when they were a small time club act sound better then their new records with all the state of the art technology.

Now I know 5,000 mics and 30,000 compressors make a big difference, but you have to believe Corgan has all that at his disposal. I bet McNight does too. Corgan just sucks at making his own music sound good on a record. Some people are like that: they don't know how to make themselves sound good in the studio. On the other hand a guy like Trent Reznor makes himself sound better then he really is on his records.

So yeah, I'll vote for 'the producer and mixing engineer' as the two guys that give you that "industry sound" not the gear and not the studio itself.

[EggyToast]

Yeah, I'm with millzners. A good example are the artists that Mitchell Froom produces. While he can produce a typical studio album, the groups he works with where he's more "in" with the band have a very unique sound. I'm thinking of the first Soul Coughing album, as well as the two Latin Playboys albums. He broke a lot of "rules" in those albums, but that also made them unique.

In a lot of ways, what happened with Billy Corgan is the same reason that a lot of professional people suggest sending off a recording to be mixed by someone else, because being the musician or band can influence the mix negatively. I have a personal experience for that one: I was working with a friend, doing some drum programming for a singer/songwriter album he was working on. Just him, a guitar, and the occasional friend or flourish, but primarily his guitar was the dominant instrument. So I sent off the drum tracks, and he said they were much too bassy. Now, typically when you do drums you do need to watch the kicks and do some EQ to ensure they're in the right spot sonically, but he didn't have any other low-end. Still, it was his recordings so I didn't say anything when he cut the bass WAY too much, making the drums sound rather thin. Maybe it's the sound he was looking for.

But then when he mixed the drums for the final track, he put them super-low in the mix. It sounded like someone in the next room over was playing drums that just happened to coincide with the music. So we went from having nice, full sounding drums to thin, quiet drums -- and they weren't originally programmed to be quiet, or else I would've used different sounds! But he either didn't notice or didn't care -- the drums weren't the focus, he didn't work on them, and he was listening for the guitar because that was his instrument.?

As for bayou12's post, I think you can look at it two ways. One, each person has their own creative vision for what a song should sound like. Yes, Quincy Jones would sound different from what you produce out of your own studio, and he would probably make it sound better because he has a lot more experience than you do. But if the challenge is to reproduce a sound, he might make something that sounds more "Quincy" in your studio in the end because to him, his sound is what he likes. And two, Brian McKnight could certainly afford to record his latest album in a big studio and get that "industry" sound (a combination of microphones, rooms, and good equipment). But instead he chose to go for a different sound, one that sounds like your studio. Even more, he could probably afford to buy the exact signal path used in the last studio he was in and construct a room identical to the vocal booth/room he was using. Instead, he preferred the "home studio" sound (which, ironically, only probably stands out if you have such a home studio!).

So I'll extend your statement about knowledge and gear. Both are good to have, but you really need the original music idea first. If you don't know what you want to sound like, the best gear and the knowledge how to use it won't count for peanuts because you won't have any use for it ;D

[anthonypayton]

I think you both are spot on. My wife has just started her photography buisness. I know its a little different but it has some of the same elements.

I think every grown up should their hand in a venture of their own. Offer your services... She loves taking pictures. So I told her to try and become a photographer. The advantage she has is me. I have been doing this music thing for 10 plus years(the recording part. I was a music major and I have been playing piano for 30 years) But since I have been recording I have learned how to buy and when not to buy, and a few skills as a buisness man.

Well I go out and buy her a little photography starter kit. Now keep in mind she has only been doing this for a few weeks. But she is comparing her pictures to someone that has been taking pictures for years.

The starter kit included: a $1,200 camera two hard disks, a camera bag, a lens, a flash and CS4.

Well she starts taking a few pictures and comparing them to someone that has been taking them for a long long time.

She goes to the store and tells the salesman she wants her pictures to look like this. He looks at her camera and say's, oh you don't have the right camera for this. (she was trying to have the subject in focus and the background blurry) So he sales her on another camera. This camera was $1,400.

Now me, I am like, Baby, you have only been taking pictures for a few months, why do you need a $1,400 dollar camera when you already have the one I bought you. LOL she hits me with "Anthony, look at your studio, you get stuff when you need it." I am like yeah, but, I have also been doing this my entire life. I know this is what I am going to do for the rest of my life. All I am saying is learn a little before you start throwing money at hardware to cover up your inexperience.

Now, believe it or not. She wants another camera, that costs like $2,000.

My point is: I want to have equipment that is going to increease my workflow, and that makes me competative. I just don't want to go out and get pro tools and all this top shelf equipment just to say, yeah I got that.

I think I need to find out how to get that sound quality first and then look at my set up and say, ok this isn't capable of doing this because it doesn't have this or it can't do that.

If you put Lance Amstrong on a 10speed that cost $7,000 (cannodale. yeah wife wants one of those too...) off the subject, but I have to tell this story.

I told my wife I wanted to start getting back in shape. I played pro ball for 10 years and when I started coaching I stopped working out and kept eating like I was working out. Of course I put on about 40lbs. Which a lot of athletes do. My playing weight was 235 (WR). Now most WR/RB/DB's play at around 210 ish. They gain 40lbs and don't look bad. Well I don't like the way 290 looks.

So I tell my wife we need to start biking. She says good idea, and in all seriousness she says. " I want a cannondale" I was like what the hell is a cannondale? I look it up. And I knew they had to be expensive just by browsing the website, all the pictures are HD, and the bikes didn't have prices. Finally I click on a image and this damn bike was $6,000... I was like what the hell. We are going to be riding around the motha^&*(( neighborhood. What do you need with a $6,000 bike. That shit is more than my motorcycle .....anyway...

What I was saying earlier. If you put Lance Armstong on a Cannondale and put me on the Kawasaki he has no chance. Eventhough he is a champion rider.

My point is: I need to know why my equipment won't do what I need done before I say ok I need something else. Salesmen will sell you anything. I have learned this all to well. "oh yeah it will do that, oh yeah it will do that too." Then you get to the crib and find out you have another patch to fill. Call the shop "well in order to get it to that you need to add this boom another $1,000 and so on and so on.

Right now I feel like I am on a cannondale and Warner Bros, Epic, Motown and Sony are on custom made choppers that cost $30,000 But I would feel just as competative if I was on a little kawasaki. It will get me to point A and B just as fast. It just won't look as good. I can live with not looking as good while I get better at what I'm doing.

LOL if I take my bike to the park and it is full of females that want to ride, they will jump on the choppers first. But there will be a few females leftover. They would prefer to ride the choppers but, my little kawasaki will be just as fun. But if I show up with a Cannondale. I will get laughed at.

[Bro Shark]

You mean guys with bikes just ride to a park, and random chicks hop on the back? Wow.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

What you are referring to is something I like to call the sound of money. There's only one thing you need to get it.

[EggyToast]

As for your wife's camera problem, it's not the camera, it's the lens. You get a sharp subject with a blurry background if you have a big aperture (low f number). So a 50mm f/1.8 lens will do that very well. And that lens costs $100 from either Nikon or Canon. Which I guess is your point -- if you know HOW to do something, you can then figure out the best way to accomplish it.

So if I want to record an orchestra, and I know how to do it (because I read it in TapeOp ;D ), then the rest is just logistics -- running cables, setting up the board, and so on. It's the same with recording a quiet acoustic guitar played in someone's bedroom -- if you know some good techniques for recording an acoustic guitar in order to get the sound that the person (or that you yourself) wants, then it's fast and straightforward. It might not sound like a carbon copy of Eric Clapton, but there's more to Eric Clapton's sound than gear -- unless you consider his fingers and technique part of his gear!

[anthonypayton]

It was an analogy bruh... I wish it was that easy for real...
People suggest some nice stuff for the studio Neumanns Protools, Pre-amps.
I am saying I want a little bling for show but I don't need all the bling. I just need to be able to be competative. And at the same time productive.

[percussion boy]

I listened to 3 of your tunes and one of the McKnight EVOLUTION tunes as a reference.

Couple thoughts from a non-pro:

1. You can sing, try mixing your vocals a little louder in the mix.

2. McKnight's stuff is brighter, more high end in both vocals and some of the other elements (e.g. handclaps). This tends to grab attention. Experiment with EQ to get a slightly brighter mix, especially on the voice?

3. Your recording seems very solid, in the vocal and the track, but it almost sounds like a mono mix. McKnight's tune (and similar stuff by other artists) uses the whole stereo field, from far left to far right. I'm not sure how they do it, but my guess is that part of it is various tricks with stereo digital delay (e.g., dry sound of an instrument panned left, delayed version panned right; or the echoes from the delay moving to different positions in the stereo field). On McKnight's tune, I think I also heard a chime sweep that moved from one stereo position to another. All this creates a feeling of motion. This was the biggest difference I noticed between your tunes and the "pro" stuff.

4. Along similar lines to #3: Does McKnight use more instrumental parts than you, maybe at low volume or panned way to one side or the other? You might be able to make your stuff busier, in a subtle way, building on the strong foundation tracks you already have. I'm not sure about this one, just seems like there could be a hair more going on in the background of your tracks.

5. Have you seen the mix-articles-by-the-pros in SOUND ON SOUND, or on their website? It's interesting to see how the people who mix the hits think, although they use so many plug-ins that for me it's irrelevant to my real bedroom studio life.

6. If you decide to throw money at this, you might be able to find a specialty store that will let you try out mics and vocal channels 'til you find one that fits. I think Mercenary Audio does this, but have not dealt with them myself.

Hope something here is helpful.

[Ryan Silva]

5. Have you seen the mix-articles-by-the-pros in SOUND ON SOUND, or on their website? It's interesting to see how the people who mix the hits think, although they use so many plug-ins that for me it's irrelevant to my real bedroom studio life.

Yes, S.O.S. does have great 'Mixing Articles' some of them have been helpful for me.

[lionaudio]

The people involved with a recording have been and always will be what makes a recording sound great. The musicians, producer, engineers, mixing and mastering engineers always make or break a recording. The gear is a distant second. Learn your gear inside and out then when you've learned it if you still can't get the sound you want, research other gear then buy what you need to get the job done. Your voice does need a specific microphone that suits it so that you don't have to rely on eq so much. When you find that mic you will be alot happier with the way you sound.

[junomat]

The people involved with a recording have been and always will be what makes a recording sound great. The musicians, producer, engineers, mixing and mastering engineers always make or break a recording. The gear is a distant second.

+1 +1 +1

And in this case, the singer. Brian is an insane signer. It's not to say you can't be that good. But no $7,000 mic will get you there. Learn your craft and learn it well.

I always give this analogy to my clients:

You put a bad drummer on john bonham's kit, it will sound like a bad drummer. you put john bonham on a bad kit and it will still be john bohnam. it's about the performance and vibe.

[MrWiegand]

First of all, you had me crackin up with those camera and bike stories

Second, dude, I listened to a few of your songs and I think you have an amazing voice and you are an excellent song writer.. I had to turn off "you mean so much to me" because my girl was getting a lil too excited and she has an exam to study for ...

I've only been recording for about 2 years now and the best advice I've gotten so far is that in music and recording, there are no rules... I can understand if you want to shoot for a commercial, polished sound, but like you and others have said, that involves experienced producers, engineers and $$$. I think what you got right now is working for you.

To me, a recording is capturing a moment. This song is you and your emotions right now. In 50 years, you may not want people to look back and say 'hey, this sounds like brian mcknight'.. or anyone else for that matter....... or maybe you do, and thats cool too.

With that said, I agree with percussion boy in that your vocals could be a little louder in some of the mixes.. maybe a little more compressed as they seem to fall in and out in some cases. Also, on a production side, from what I listened to I didn't hear any harmonies.. I heard some doubled parts, but I think you are probably capable of some sweet vocal harmonizing, which could help create a little more depth if you get them set right in the mix.

Keep it up man, I like what I hear.

[millzners]

Yeah, I'm with millzners. A good example are the artists that Mitchell Froom produces. While he can produce a typical studio album, the groups he works with where he's more "in" with the band have a very unique sound. I'm thinking of the first Soul Coughing album, as well as the two Latin Playboys albums. He broke a lot of "rules" in those albums, but that also made them unique.

Love the 1st Soul Coughing record, that had to have been a very challenging band to record and mix, and the result was fantastic. I often go back to SC's earlier records for reference b/c I love how they sound.