Mics mods vs buying modded mics - price difference?

[AstroSounds]

I'm looking to expand my mic locker as economically as possible.
So when I ran into an Apex mic package that includes a 205, 185 and a 415 for $250 (average $85/mic) I though this was a great idea. Each of these mics are stellar candidates for mods so I started calculating a total bill for the initial mic cost plus the mods I'd want.

Apex 205
$85 initial + $270 Oktavamod premium upgrade w/shockmount + $25 shipping costs(?) = $380

Apex 185
$85 initial + $229 Oktavamod ultimate SDC upgrade + $20 shipping costs = $335

Apex 415
$85 initial + $300?? Advanced Audio mod (I know this mod exist but have no idea how much it costs so I'm basing it off similar mods price points) + $25 shipping costs = $410

When I looked at these numbers two things hit me:
1. Aren't there pre-modded models with great reviews around these price points? 2. I need to learn to mod mics myself.

Point 2 is for a later post - I can barely solder so I've got a ways to go.
Point 1 I can elaborate on:

A Shinybox 46MXL is $400+shipping. That's probably only $20-30 more than the mod-ing the Apex, right?

The modded Apex 185 has lost of competition from things like Avatone CK-1s ($150), Naiant XMs ($90 but with considerably less features) or AT 4021s (about $75 less).

A CM-414 from Advanced Audio (which I suspect is a modded Apex 415?) is $380 with shipping. Again, I'm completely guessing on the mod cost but even if I'm $29 over than it's still cheaper to buy the premodded one.

I'm not picking on Michael Joly or AA (I never ever ever would). I'm happy they are around to provide these options. I'm just amazed that even when grabbing these mics at $85/mic, the price for mods still barely beats or maybe doesn't beat buying premodded mics. Not to mention that buying pre-modded likely means less wait time and less hassle from packing and shipping the initial mics.
Do the modders want it that way for some reason?

Conclusion - I really need to learn to use a soldering iron.

Your thoughts? What's the best strategy here?

[Jim Williams]

Get an electronics education and learn to do it yourself?

Or, if you don't want to invest that much time and effort, use those that provide the service.

Now, what was your problem again?

[AstroSounds]

Get an electronics education and learn to do it yourself?

Or, if you don't want to invest that much time and effort, use those that provide the service.

Now, what was your problem again?

Wow! So if you read my post you see that I say that I'm super glad people provide that service and am happy that I have to choose between using their skills to mod mics I buy myself or buying their pre-modded mics.

I'm not asking for a solution to a problem. I'm pointing out something that I hadn't noticed before and hoping others find it useful. In addition, I'm wondering if those people who are smarter and wiser than me who noticed this a long time ago have a strategy for optimizing their costs (hence the questions: "Your thoughts?" and "What's the best strategy here?")

But thanks for the dismissive reply!

[JWL]

I enjoy DIY. I've modded a few of my own mics. That said, it's a time sink and these days I'd rather get Joly to do it for me. I know it's done right, I know I'm supporting a really cool business, and I get great sounding mics back. Everybody wins.

[kslight]

What's your existing mic locker look like and what recording goals do you hope to achieve with new mics?


I personally feel that in this price range you are better off looking at top quality dynamics if you don't already have them than paying tons of money to have junk Chinese condensers modified... Like a Shure SM7, EV RE20, Sennheiser 421/441... Or if you need condensers I think on the used market for the same money you can get less desirable but good quality condensers...like Shure KSN44/32/141 or the ATs...


Just my opinion that it is a little silly to be willing to pay 3x the value of a mic to have theic modified to be any good...no offense to Joly/et all but at that price point I think you are losing the value aspect of these mics...and I think it's safe to say that many people buying cheap mics probably have cheap pres...a better investment then in my opinion to buy a couple good pres than to modify a few cheap mics that will still be hitting cheap pres...

[jgimbel]

I agree with kslight about the dynamics. When I think "good mics at $300-$400", what I find time and time again is the dynamics rule that price point. I finally got an SM7 after hearing so many good things but still looking for a LDC, and I could tell from the first week I used it it'd be one I'm going to use forever. I was looking for an LDC for $300-$600, and it's a tough thing to get a handle on. There are tons of mics for $100-$250, some of which are often listed as "awesome for being so cheap". These tend to be the ones people get modded. Then the next price point up that seems to be a dramatic jump up in quality is toward $1000. The closest thing I've found for great mid-level LDCs is the AT4050 (I like my 3035 as well). Very natural, transparent without being totally sterile. There are some tube condensers in this range too but I feel like more often than not they're not all they're cracked up to be, and the tube is so they can say "it has a tube, it's automatically amazing!".

I can understand kslight's point as well about it being ridiculous to buy cheap mics just to have them modded. I agree to a degree. My thoughts on it are that it's kind of silly to buy a mic just to have it modded - if you know you're going to spend x amount of dollars on it altogether, just find something you can get that won't need modding that fits what you're looking for. The place I find the mods coming in really, really handy, is if, like me, you started out with cheap mics (I had an MXL army here), and you're recording long enough that you really start to see that the mics are your weak link in the recording chain, then instead of having to try to sell mics you know aren't that great and try to get all new, better mics, you can have the ones you have modded into something that sounds as good as much more expensive mics, for a mid-level mic price. I've got two MXL 603Ss that I LOVE for overheads, and occasionally room mics. They're unmodded, and I don't really have any problems with their sound. If I start to be unsatisfied with them or find myself wanting something sounding different, rather than look for what SDCs are the ones to go with, I will most likely have them modded. I think that's the place for it.

However I wish I had seen Joly's K47H before I spent most of what I had on some other things. That's 100% the next LDC I see myself buying ASAP.

[AstroSounds]

Thanks everyone. Your responses definitely differ but it's useful to hear these opinions.

JWL - so do you still buy the mics yourself and send them in or have you shifted to just buying premodded mics from Joly and others?

kslight - My mic locker is what you might expect for a small home studio. As far as dynamics, I've got 2 SM57s and 2 1950s EV RE-10s (I've found these to be super useful). I can see your point, and a SM7 is definitely a top priority.

Mainly the reason I keep looking at mod sites is because I want another ribbon mic (only a Fathead in the locker right now) so I spend too much time looking for deals on Ebay and then checking Oktavamod and company for how much the total cost would be.

kslight - I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just curious, do you have any experience with some of the modded mics out there? Did something convince you of your current opinion?

[Harry]

The original point was...A modded mic cost about the same as a mic sent in to be modded(when all said and done) right?

If it was a big difference I think people would call them out on it?

One reason I might just get a mic and get the mod later is that I might like the mic just fine the way it is....Or at least I can tell what's better after the mod.
Or I might not have the $$ for the modded mic but the fact that it can get a cool upgrade down the line might make me want to get that mic over another?

I don't know......WTF was your problem again?

[Michael_Joly]

I'm looking to expand my mic locker as economically as possible.
So when I ran into an Apex mic package that includes a 205, 185 and a 415 for $250 (average $85/mic) I though this was a great idea. Each of these mics are stellar candidates for mods so I started calculating a total bill for the initial mic cost plus the mods I'd want...

Great topic, glad to Jim Williams join in. I'll just work my way through comments and questions and provide my perspective.

A lot of people are in a similar place - they have a need to expand their mic locker economically. I gather from your comment above a ribbon, SDC and FET LDC would meet your current expansion needs. Yes, there are a handful of dynamic mics that are both industry standards and great values. I'm crazy about the RE-15. But that?s an apples and oranges comparison isn't it? Because if you know you need a ribbon, SDC and LDC no dynamic mic is going to replace the functionality, versatility and sound of those three different mic types.

So lets talk about that Apex package a minute. Pretty hard to argue with an entry cost of $250 for three mics that are proven to work well right out of the box (just check for and reject the 205 is the ribbon is sagging). I can't think of a single $250 dynamic mic that is going to offer the versatility and learning experience those three Apex mic will offer.

The point has been made, but its worth repeating - you may like those mics quite well in their stock form. But if at some point you do decide to mod them you will have had low entry cost and immediate use of the mics - a good investment in other words. Then, when you have mod'd mics in hand you will have spread the cost of that performance level over time and not had to incur the expense all at once.

Apart from those generalities - a couple of specific comments: First, the Apex 415 is a garden-variety K67-type capsule / FET / flat response circuit mic (its quite bright in other words). It?s a good candidate for my MJE-K47 mod suite. Second, while I have published prices for single mic mods at my shop, folks have written to ask if I'll consider giving them a package price. Depending on the nature of the order I often can accommodate them.

Re: Learning to mod mics yourself - Go for it! Check out the mic meta at The Lab. But ask yourself if you really want to work on mics in addition to engineering your own music on top of writing and performing it. For some people DIY is a hobby and learning experience. Other people prefer to outsource their tech needs to service providers. My clients place a value on their music making and recording time and choose to have me be their service provider.

Re: Pre-mod'd models with great reviews around these (mod'd mic) price points - Well now you're talking about a different buying strategy, buying the cost-of-performance upfront rather than in two stages. I can't speak for other vendors, but I sure have a lot of clients sending me new Rode NT1a, Apex 205 & 460 and various 22mm mics like the Apex 185, Nady CM-90 and CAD GXL1200 direct from the retailer to be modified.

The best strategy? First determine where your mic locker's growing edges are. Listen to sound samples of mics you're considering against best-in-class standards. Determine the value of your time and how you want to spend the time you have. Decide if you want to purchase mic performance upfront or amortize the cost in stages. Have fun!

[kingmetal]

Mr. Joly said it perfectly -- I think the idea here is that your mics can start cheap, when you're low on experience and dollars, and then grow with you as you need them to. I look at it as no mic in my locker will get discarded -- sort of like recycling.

That being said, I have bought mics expressly for Joly to work on them because I think of him like a manufacturer. His mics have a sound, I love that sound and my clients do as well. Some of the new stuff I'm working on is sounding really amazing, even un-mixed, and my ho-hum pre-amps sure aren't the reason why. Just like when Neumann puts out a new mic, you're likely to take a listen to it or maybe even buy it just on reputation alone, if I need a mic I go to Oktavamod. I'd rather see my hard-earned bucks go to a nice guy who has done more than his fair share for the community anyway, but this is just my old speech all over again so I'll cut myself off here.

I can't speak for other modders though, and I don't know how many other people out there offer services like Oktavamod does. I see the point that most folks try to make about mods: why not buy something quality to begin with that you don't have to futz with. I agree, and now there are more and more mics competing in the price-range of the modded mics.

I still think of it as a great value (it is, it really is!) and I will continue to have a mostly-modded mic locker.

[kslight]

Thanks everyone. Your responses definitely differ but it's useful to hear these opinions.

JWL - so do you still buy the mics yourself and send them in or have you shifted to just buying premodded mics from Joly and others?

kslight - My mic locker is what you might expect for a small home studio. As far as dynamics, I've got 2 SM57s and 2 1950s EV RE-10s (I've found these to be super useful). I can see your point, and a SM7 is definitely a top priority.

Mainly the reason I keep looking at mod sites is because I want another ribbon mic (only a Fathead in the locker right now) so I spend too much time looking for deals on Ebay and then checking Oktavamod and company for how much the total cost would be.

kslight - I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just curious, do you have any experience with some of the modded mics out there? Did something convince you of your current opinion?

I have not submitted a mic for modifying...I try to avoid cheap condensers the best I can... Actually the only mic I have that Joly modifies is the Rode NT1. I have considered sending it in, and probably will at some point that I feel like parting with the cash. But my opinion is formed on experience in electronics and modifying circuits, buying/using/selling cheap gear, and using real gear. Factors I consider are bang for buck... I look at what will make the biggest difference in a signal chain... If you already have a modest collection of good dynamics/decent condensers into good pres and you can hear the full extent of the microphone or if you are taking the same mics into an M Audio pre/ interface...I don't think you'll benefit significantly from a modified cheap mic...a couple good pres will make a bigger overall improvement in your sound...would be like modifying all of your mics. If you already have good pres and want some cheapish modified mics, then yeah, you'll probably hear a difference. The point I have is that for the money you want to spend there are more substantial sonic improvements and better investments to be made, and to me it's a false economy to buy a $80 mic specifically to drop $300 to have it modified..YMMV.

[trodden]

Mr. Joly said it perfectly -- I think the idea here is that your mics can start cheap, when you're low on experience and dollars, and then grow with you as you need them to. I look at it as no mic in my locker will get discarded -- sort of like recycling.

BINGO! all of my Joly Mod'd mic's had years of use into them before going to "tha doctor" I've not bought a new mic in about a year. That was an SM7... something i had wanted for a long time.

[beefy]

I've modded plenty of things if you want to learn how to do it yourself a mic is a good place to start. The benefit of this is you eventually start getting into comps, eqs and pres and it will improve your recording rig tremendously with out having to take every piece of equipment to someone and you save a lot of money that way. The down side of it is every once in a while, you mod something into a door stop or even garbage.

That being said if you try and stay away from Chinese Condensers one of them apex 205s looks pretty tempting and I have heard good things about what Mr. Joly does to them

[ott0bot]

Re: Learning to mod mics yourself - Go for it! Check out the mic meta at The Lab.

Cool resource!

Michael - Just FYI, there is a post on there that is extremely critical of your recording hacks ribbon mic article.

[mvollrath]

I think this point has been made before, but you ought to consider the value of your investment. Typically, modified equipment (no matter who did the modification) does not resell for anywhere near the amount you've invested in it. This may or may not be true for the mods you're talking about; go to eBay and find out for yourself (I can't find any for sale). On the other hand, a good used $300+ microphone will potentially sell for close to the same amount you bought it for.

I bought a used AT4050 this year, I'm really happy with it, and it is a solid investment because everybody recognizes that an AT4050 has value. If I had received the mic and decided I didn't really like it, I could have turned around and sold it for very little loss. I will probably still be able to resell it at no loss in a few years (in fact, the used value might go up as AT has recently hiked its shelf prices). You may keep your modded Apex for the rest of your life, and in that case, great. You got a mic that you like for a reasonable price. But consider that you can get a used AT4050 for about the same price as the Apex 415 after mods, they both sound good, they have the same feature set, but one will be worth what you paid for it.

The whole investment thing is, I think, more important to high-budget professional studios than bedroom recordists. If you record things for fun, buy things that are fun. If you record things for money, buy things that are worth money. The only way to achieve both is to mod an Apex yourself, at the cost of time.