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anthonypayton
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Validation

Post by anthonypayton » Thu May 27, 2010 12:40 pm

When is it valid to label yourself as a producer?
When is it valid to label yourself as a songwriter?
When is it valid to lable yourself as a studio?
There is no instant gratification in preparation. The reward is being prepared for the opportunity.- ME

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Re: Validation

Post by drumsound » Thu May 27, 2010 1:33 pm

anthonypayton wrote:When is it valid to label yourself as a producer?
When is it valid to label yourself as a songwriter?
When is it valid to lable yourself as a studio?
When you've produced a record
When you've written a song
When you have a studio

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Thu May 27, 2010 1:49 pm

Dude,

You are trippin!!!

Have you read your signature lately?

You should do what you think is right. Follow your own path and the rewards and labels will follow. You have the tools, get your head out of your way and use them.

One thing I've been thinking about (I've been thinking about all your threads even when I'm away from the board.) You should try to find a "producer" who's in the same stage of their career that you are as a song-writer. Try to find the guy that's going to be charging $50k a song ten years from now, but is just struggling to find their sound, their artist and make a name for themselves. You guys should be the best thing that ever happened to each other.

The best grooves, jams, songs, records, careers have all come from people working together. At least two people. These people that think they are doing it all themselves [and therefore worth $50k] are full of shit. They just have the hot shit name and the connections to "get that sound", but they'd be nowhere without their entourage.

With respect.

ck

PS I guess I really need to add that I'm a nobody in the music business. A fan, a musician, a struggling recordist, I've recorded some bands nobody's heard of a lifetime ago, etc. I feel like if I'm going to be thinking about your sitch I might as well let you know what I've come up with though.
Carl Keil

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Post by mvollrath » Thu May 27, 2010 2:48 pm

It is extremely rare for anyone to be highly proficient at all three things. Michael Jackson is the only example that comes to mind. Snarl is right that you should focus on one aspect and find someone at your level in another aspect that you have good chemistry with. It will take years to make it, but the payoff will be big.. expect to grow like you've never grown before. Otherwise, you will be mediocre at everything..
"All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up." - pablo picasso

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Post by Nick Sevilla » Thu May 27, 2010 4:15 pm

"Do, or do not. There is no try."

Yoda.
Howling at the neighbors. Hoping they have more mic cables.

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Snarl 12/8
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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Thu May 27, 2010 4:27 pm

mvollrath wrote:It is extremely rare for anyone to be highly proficient at all three things. Michael Jackson is the only example that comes to mind. Snarl is right that you should focus on one aspect and find someone at your level in another aspect that you have good chemistry with. It will take years to make it, but the payoff will be big.. expect to grow like you've never grown before. Otherwise, you will be mediocre at everything..
But would MJ have even been MJ without his dad and/or Quincy Jones having an early influence on him?
Carl Keil

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Post by Jay Reynolds » Thu May 27, 2010 5:47 pm

Snarl 12/8 wrote:.

The best grooves, jams, songs, records, careers have all come from people working together.
See Miles Davis. On top of being a genius improviser and absolutely brilliant at finding the next direction for jazz, he had an uncanny knack for picking the right people with whom to surround himself. Some of his best stuff (Kind Of Blue, Sketches of Spain, Bitches Brew) is about collaboration.
Prog out with your cog out.

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Thu May 27, 2010 6:13 pm

werd clock wrote:
Snarl 12/8 wrote:.

The best grooves, jams, songs, records, careers have all come from people working together.
See Miles Davis. On top of being a genius improviser and absolutely brilliant at finding the next direction for jazz, he had an uncanny knack for picking the right people with whom to surround himself. Some of his best stuff (Kind Of Blue, Sketches of Spain, Bitches Brew) is about collaboration.
I don't believe that the individual pieces can really be commodified the way people seem to want them to these days. (See Craigslist ads - "Awesome Drummer Wanted to complete our amazing band.) Team me up with one of those $50k producers and you still won't have a hit record. They need someone to riff off of too. There's lots of examples of bands that never quite got their shit back together after losing just one member, even when they kept at it. They might still be monster players on their own, and have a big name, but that magical connection gets lost. It's not about the entities on either end of the relationship, but about the connection between them.
Carl Keil

Almost forgot: Please steal my drum tracks. and more.

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Post by drumsound » Thu May 27, 2010 10:45 pm

werd clock wrote:
Snarl 12/8 wrote:.

The best grooves, jams, songs, records, careers have all come from people working together.
See Miles Davis. On top of being a genius improviser and absolutely brilliant at finding the next direction for jazz, he had an uncanny knack for picking the right people with whom to surround himself. Some of his best stuff (Kind Of Blue, Sketches of Spain, Bitches Brew) is about collaboration.
Yes. yes and YES

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Post by Recycled_Brains » Fri May 28, 2010 7:55 am

It's pretty funny how much the title "Producer" is misused.

I have, on several occassions, been introduced by people as the "guy that produced ________'s album". I'm always like, "well, I engineered and mixed it. Don't give me too much credit!" Or, "Well, I guess you should've paid me more then."

haha.
Ryan Slowey
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http://maggotbrainny.bandcamp.com

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anthonypayton
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I don't have a problem with collabing with other people...

Post by anthonypayton » Fri May 28, 2010 9:49 am

I am totally on the same boat you guys are on... I only asked those question because: I have had people that call themselves songwriters and ask for my help and they send my a document that looks like a letter of their life. It has no structure at all. That is just one example. Or you meet a person that says they are a produce because they have a CD full of beats. Or you meet a guy that has a laptop and a DAW and call it a studio. I guess I should have reworded the question.
I am moving forward guys, I have always been moving forward. I have a team of people that I can call on to do certain things. Produce, write, etc... but these people have other projects going on too... And I don't like to wait. I get antsy and PS3 can only take up so much time. I don't have kids and I don't work, so therefore my entire day is dedicated towards getting better at my craft. Putting in my 20,000 hours. I ask questions to make sure none of those hours are wasted.
If people paid attention to details vs assuming, things my take a little longer but they would go smoother in the long run...I mean thats what I have learned (doesn't mean I apply it ALL the time) when I dont it comes back to bite me...

I found out this weekend that pre-amps make a huge difference in recording. Now I have been told this; I have listened, but I had never heard the difference. So why we say" you can't get the industry sound in a home studio" i just heard what I was looking for in a guys studio who's setup is almost identical to mine. Same monitors same business model- musician, composer, band member, engieneer. He does it all. and his sound is like- woah... I mean everything he played was like God **** how did you get those vocals out front... "its all in the pre-amps bruh, that is what all the guys in Nashville preach" pre-amp, pre-amp, pre-amp.... Now can he make R&B sound like that... I don't know, but I am going to find out...

He has a band, a studio, and he writes his own stuff... He is booked for the rest of the year... I went over there to just hang out and talk about some of the same things we have discussed on here. and he had three sessions that day. Once I get these motorcylcle tires changed, I will be there all the time just looking over his shoulder. Trying(oops sorry yoda) to get/ getting some time in when guys don't show up. Driving the Expedition an hour one way is financial suicide.

And it is my nature to ask advice vs giving it. Therefore I post a lot of question vs answering posts. Giving advice is a sensitive thing for me... To give advice to someone you have to know that it won't lead them down a wrong path. Unless you are absolutly certain it will make them successful for them. I can give advice for football, because I know if you do this and this and this, you will be successful... but I haven't become versed enough in all the subjects on here to offer advice. So in order to be a part of the growth of knowledge on the site.... I ask question that someone else would probably want to hear also. I know I want to hear the answers and I can't be the only one. Now it this was a songwriting site I might be more motivated to give advice. But half the questions on here are about stuff that I don't even get into for real... That might be the reason why my questions seem so crazy. There are other people doing what I am doing, the- the one man show thingy, but they don't seem to be on the forums or they aren't speaking up. But when I talk to people face to face thats all they are are doing. My friends are all successful multi-taskers, but like I said before they are all busy, and can't talk to me everyday. And they are in different time zones... It is much easier to post something on here and wait for a response.
But at the same time, I found a multi-tasker on here that is near by. And the studio I went to a few days ago (took my wifes car) who I have know for at least 4 years, just didn't know he was so good... and he wasn't as good as he is now as he was when I first met him. But, he was still charging the same prices... $250 a song, which isn't bad. But just like now, back then he wasn't working with R&B artists. And then we had the exact same set up. VS2480CD with Behringer monitors, basment studio with concrete floors and drop rugs everywhere... His VS24 broke down and it forced him to get a computer. Now his sound is f-ing eww wee..

Oh and a guy that does it all, that no one has mention is Babyface... 10 grammy's, musician, songwriter, producer, arranger, and has worked with pop, country, rock, and R&B... and does it in his home studio. Now of course his studio is most likely in the hundreds of thousands but, it has been done.

Again, I am all for the team thing. I approach people all the time about collabs, all the time... Show me what you got, lets do something, hence the question, when is it valid to call your self, a songwriter, a producer, a studio... The same thing you all are telling me to do, I am doing, but everyone calls themselves something, and aint worth a damn... I am very patient, and understanding. But after awhile it gets hard and frustrating to tell someone" ahhh I can work with you right now" because we aren't going in the same direction/ or the skill level isn't nearly the same. I am at a point where I can't carry anyone. I need people around me that are better than I am. Ironically, those people cost money. Personally I feel like I am really close, I think I have a few "hit songs" if hit songs even exist anymore. It just needs a little something more to push them to the top. Someone at the same level isn't going to do that for me... The songs that I think are "hits" were produced by guess that charge $3,000 a song. But I am just sitting on those songs right now. I mean I have people promoting them, but they aren't on the charts. The latest song I wrote the music was produced by someone else and I wrote the lyrics... and mixed it. Everyone is loving it. It was done on logic with loops, and samples. Cut, copy, and paste... render and convert. That is all commercial R&B is these days I think.
I know what sounds good, I know what doesn't... So let me get what these other "producers" that didn't go to school, bought a laptop and some samples and a mpc and are cranking out $50,000 tracks. If they can do it. Then I can do it too... Thats just my out look on it...
I could find a local guy that is on his way up and we could work on projects and bust out 100 songs. That takes time, and if they are just going to be average they aren't going generate income. Time=Life, wasted Time=Wasted Life...

I am all for the team thing I really am. But just like Ron Jones said (composser for Family Guy) todays industry is different, you can't do things like we did them yesterday, you have evolve into something different...

And MJ wouldn't be sh** without Quincy, Barry Gordie, and his Dad...
Another thing is this... I usually spend a lot of time with my Jazz teacher, but my truck broke down after a gig, oh what a night. I took my precious time loading my gear and was the last person to leave went to crank the car..... nothing... had to get towed 60 miles, truck broke down at 1am, I didnt get to the crib until 5am.... and my bike tires need to be changed. Therefore you all have been getting the questions that John usually counsels me on...
My neighbor works at Ford and refused to let me take my truck to the dealer. it has taken us a few weeks to fix it. He has to work, I am arranging, and writing. But its cool cause I don't have anything to do but record, my work is here. And I have been waiting for my bike tires to be ordered. Soooo I have had down time to talk to you guys... I use this as an outlet, instead of talking to myself. LOL

And at the same time, you all have great input that is helping me grow... So it is all positive to me...

I didn't proof read this sorry for the misprints and sentences that didn't make since... have to get to work on my truck.. hopefully today it will start...
There is no instant gratification in preparation. The reward is being prepared for the opportunity.- ME

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suppositron
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Re: I don't have a problem with collabing with other people.

Post by suppositron » Fri May 28, 2010 12:43 pm

anthonypayton wrote: I found out this weekend that pre-amps make a huge difference in recording. Now I have been told this; I have listened, but I had never heard the difference. So why we say" you can't get the industry sound in a home studio" i just heard what I was looking for in a guys studio who's setup is almost identical to mine. Same monitors same business model- musician, composer, band member, engieneer. He does it all. and his sound is like- woah... I mean everything he played was like God **** how did you get those vocals out front... "its all in the pre-amps bruh, that is what all the guys in Nashville preach" pre-amp, pre-amp, pre-amp.... Now can he make R&B sound like that... I don't know, but I am going to find out...
If you can't hear the difference in pre amps they aren't going to get you that "industry sound".

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Suppositron

Post by anthonypayton » Fri May 28, 2010 1:35 pm

No no no LOL...
I was saying that before tuesday, I wasn't able to compare pre-amp to pre-amp... But this weekend I was able to see it in action. Which helped me understand more why it is a huge difference.... Before people would just say get a better pre-amp, but I hadn't experienced what a better pre-amp could do. Now don't get me wrong.... Mike is a good engieneer, but he said he wouldn't be able to get that sound if he didn't have the pre-amp. He uses a pro-fire 26/26 I believe and it is hooked to another on so it is total of 16 inputs...
The other day I was able to hear that. I am going to stop say industry sound because I think, "industry sound has to a lot with Mastering" I am going to say, a more professional sound from now on...

But I was able to witness a good pre-amp at work... I have never been able to do that before
There is no instant gratification in preparation. The reward is being prepared for the opportunity.- ME

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Post by Jay Reynolds » Fri May 28, 2010 2:56 pm

I wonder how much of what you were hearing had to do with room treatment.

I also wonder if what you were listening to had been finalized in some fashion (ie the final mix had been compressed/eq'd/limited/reverbed/etc.).
Prog out with your cog out.

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Post by suppositron » Fri May 28, 2010 3:50 pm

Ah, gotcha. Yeah those above and about a million other variables on why his stuff sounded good. Experience, experience.

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