Buying a nicer preamp... to run through a Firepod/Firebox?

[mike_ender]

Is this kind of... a waste of time? Limited funds and even more limited Real Studio Experience have left me with some empty spaces in my knowledge, such as: what happens when you take a nice mic pre-amp and run it into the front-end of a serviceable but certainly not MINDBLOWING device like the Firepod or Firebox? Are the Presonus devices' signal paths crummy enough to totally sabotage any improvements the nice preamp will offer my tone? Or, if I allow the New, Better Preamp to do the amplifying, and keep the Presonus stuff turned down all the way, will the Presonus stuff allow the new pre-amp to shine?

The specific application of this is as follows... I've got a bunch of alright-to-decent mics, nothing too amazing but plenty of stuff that I like. Oktava MK 319s and MK-012s, an EV RE20, a 57, some ATM 25s, a Behringer ECM8000 that cost 40 bucks but I like a lot, an AT 4033, etc... At first I wasn't hearing as much of a difference from these mics as I imagine I should have been hearing. I think the weak link was the pre-amp; I was just using the stock preamps on my Firepod. Then, a couple years ago, I got a used ART Digital MPA and I noticed a wider difference within my same mic selection (not using the digital outs, but running through the front of the Firepod so as to still take advantage of the Firepod's zero-latency monitoring, but when I used the SPDIF I didn't notice any real sound advantage anyway). Shortly thereafter, I bought a Presonus Eureka secondhand, popped a new op-amp in, and again noticed a wider tonal range than I had previously heard. The Eureka has made the ART obsolete (as long as I only need one input), the ART made the Firepod preamps obsolete (as long as I only need 2 inputs), etc....

That brings us up to now, and I think I'm ready to buy a legitimately solid pre-amp. I got a new job and I deserve a treat. I'm thinking pretty hard about the Summit 2ba-221, but the question is: would I be totally kneecapping that thing by running it directly into the Firepod or Firebox as my audio interface? Will those devices prevent the Summit from really helping me out?

The flip side of this is, instead of investing in a new dedicated pre-amp, I get something like the Focusrite Saffire Liquid Pro and replace the Firepod entirely. The benefit of the Summit is that it's portable and I can pop it in my backpack when I bike to and from my practice space, use it at the space or at home as I see fit (Firepod in the space, Firebox at home, I record on a laptop). The benefit of the Liquid Pro (assuming it's a good piece of gear) is that it would replace the Firepod outright, if that truly is a weak link.

Anyway, I'm new but I've been lurking for a while, and I'd appreciate any suggestions in this scenario!

[jgimbel]

I've barked up this tree around here a lot. I use a Firestudio Project, which is basically the new Firebox. I've seen a few different answers. The issue comes because the preamps on these interfaces can't be bypassed (as I'm sure you know). Some interfaces to let you do that, but not these. The general consensus I've seen (and what I've found after using it for a number of years) is that by doing exactly what you say, letting the preamp do the amping and keeping the Firebox/Firestudio neutral you can still get the benefits of the sound of the preamp. At least enough that I can totally hear the specific preamps I'm using in the different tracks. I'll use certain preamps for certain sound jobs, and if the the Firestudio just took out the character of the preamps I shouldn't be hearing the difference. So I've seen a lot of people agree that just keeping the interface pretty neutral will still let the external preamps shine. The thing I've seen debated is exactly what neutral is on the interface. I've seen a lot of people say that even up to about 12:00 you don't really get much of the interface's sound overtaking. I've seen more people saying around 1/4 of the way up is about the limit. I've never really had it be an issue. I use my external preamps to set the gain, and if I just need that bit more (if I'm using a low-output mic into a slightly noisier preamp maybe) I know that I can give it an extra little boost on the Firestudio Project and it's not going to kill the character of the pre.

[Peterson Goodwyn]

I agree, you can run good preamps into bad preamps (with the gain turned down) and still notice a big difference. If you want to hear for yourself, check out the Gearslutz thread where the guy shot out the Behringer and Lynx converters. The Behringer unit also has built-in preamps that cannot be bypassed.

[Producer/Engineer]

You bypass the preamps in the presonus interface by running 1/4 balanced line in into the unit NOT XLR ! This will bypass the preamps in the presonus units. No turning up anything on the presonus. The gain knobs stay all the way down (-20 line). This is how you bypass the preamp in the presonus units. Then you will only be using the presonus unit for a/d conversion.
You can confirm this by calling Presonus Support.

[mike_ender]

Thanks for the responses!

From what I recall reading, the Firepod preamps are still active even if you give them a line signal, and they are at zero gain in different locations on the dial depending on whether you're plugged in with xlr or with 1/4". I think all the way down for xlr, 12:00 for 1/4". But it sounds like as long as most of my amplification is coming from the better preamp, I'm in good shape. Any other opinions?

[digdoug]

You bypass the preamps in the presonus interface by running 1/4 balanced line in into the unit NOT XLR ! This will bypass the preamps in the presonus units. No turning up anything on the presonus. The gain knobs stay all the way down (-20 line). This is how you bypass the preamp in the presonus units. Then you will only be using the presonus unit for a/d conversion.
You can confirm this by calling Presonus Support.

Not true. The only way to bypass the converters is to use ADAT or SPIDIF ins on the back. I have a suggestion though - do yourself a favor and pick up another set of converters if you have the cash - I got a MOTU 2408 (mk2) used for like $225. Run it in standalone mode connected via fiber (ADAT lightpipe) into the Presonus. It's a super easy setup - here are the details: http://npluszero.org/?p=12 This gives you 8 more converters that are pretty decent and will carry you foreward till you're ready to unload all of it and go with an upscale converter and standalone pres.

[mike_ender]

Yeah digdoug... that's what I thought. The only thing is, if you use the ADAT or SPDIF ins on the back of the Firepod, you can't utilize the latency-free monitoring, which I really like and use all the time for vocals.

I'm not recording super polished pop or anything like that... mostly abrasive guitar-heavy, low bitrate synthesizer rock. I don't mind noise or hiss or anything like that, really, I just want my microphones to work their best, want my instruments to come through clearly.

Do you think the MOTU converters would sound enough better than just going into the Firepod turned down a bit for it to be worth sacrificing the zero-latency monitoring?

[Nick Sevilla]

Yeah digdoug... that's what I thought. The only thing is, if you use the ADAT or SPDIF ins on the back of the Firepod, you can't utilize the latency-free monitoring, which I really like and use all the time for vocals.

I'm not recording super polished pop or anything like that... mostly abrasive guitar-heavy, low bitrate synthesizer rock. I don't mind noise or hiss or anything like that, really, I just want my microphones to work their best, want my instruments to come through clearly.

Do you think the MOTU converters would sound enough better than just going into the Firepod turned down a bit for it to be worth sacrificing the zero-latency monitoring?

Get a MIXER. An analogue one, then you can do no latency monitoring.

I definitely like the Motu converters on their latest iteration of equipment.

Cheers

[mike_ender]

A mixer is a possibility, but if we're taking "Should I buy a new pre-amp" and turning that into "you should buy a new pre-amp, new MOTU converters, and a new mixer" we're kind of pushing my original question into an entirely new realm of purchasing and expenses.

I'm pretty happy with the way the Firepod behaves functionally, just well aware that it's possible to be satisfied because you haven't experienced anything better. So I'd be willing to believe that I should invest in the Liquid Saffire because its converters are better than the Firepod's (if they are... I have no idea). But if the answer to this question is fundamentally "A better pre-amp will make a big difference, even running directly into the Firepod/Firebox," I think I will probably buy the Summit!

[Nick Sevilla]

A mixer is a possibility, but if we're taking "Should I buy a new pre-amp" and turning that into "you should buy a new pre-amp, new MOTU converters, and a new mixer" we're kind of pushing my original question into an entirely new realm of purchasing and expenses.

I'm pretty happy with the way the Firepod behaves functionally, just well aware that it's possible to be satisfied because you haven't experienced anything better. So I'd be willing to believe that I should invest in the Liquid Saffire because its converters are better than the Firepod's (if they are... I have no idea). But if the answer to this question is fundamentally "A better pre-amp will make a big difference, even running directly into the Firepod/Firebox," I think I will probably buy the Summit!

Does Pandora's Box mean anything to you?

[mike_ender]

You know, at the bottom of the box is Hope...

...and a Sweetwater catalog. :-/

[Producer/Engineer]

You bypass the preamps in the presonus interface by running 1/4 balanced line in into the unit NOT XLR ! This will bypass the preamps in the presonus units. No turning up anything on the presonus. The gain knobs stay all the way down (-20 line). This is how you bypass the preamp in the presonus units. Then you will only be using the presonus unit for a/d conversion.
You can confirm this by calling Presonus Support.

Not true. The only way to bypass the converters is to use ADAT or SPIDIF ins on the back. I have a suggestion though - do yourself a favor and pick up another set of converters if you have the cash - I got a MOTU 2408 (mk2) used for like $225. Run it in standalone mode connected via fiber (ADAT lightpipe) into the Presonus. It's a super easy setup - here are the details: http://npluszero.org/?p=12 This gives you 8 more converters that are pretty decent and will carry you foreward till you're ready to unload all of it and go with an upscale converter and standalone pres.

That may be true on the Firebox, but according to Presonus Tech Support on the Firestudio you can bypass the Presonus preamps by using inputs 3 thru 8 and using a 1/4" line in from your preamp of choice. You can not use an XLR connection and bypass the Presonus preamps. Not the case on the Firebox.

[jgimbel]

You bypass the preamps in the presonus interface by running 1/4 balanced line in into the unit NOT XLR ! This will bypass the preamps in the presonus units. No turning up anything on the presonus. The gain knobs stay all the way down (-20 line). This is how you bypass the preamp in the presonus units. Then you will only be using the presonus unit for a/d conversion.
You can confirm this by calling Presonus Support.

Not true. The only way to bypass the converters is to use ADAT or SPIDIF ins on the back. I have a suggestion though - do yourself a favor and pick up another set of converters if you have the cash - I got a MOTU 2408 (mk2) used for like $225. Run it in standalone mode connected via fiber (ADAT lightpipe) into the Presonus. It's a super easy setup - here are the details: http://npluszero.org/?p=12 This gives you 8 more converters that are pretty decent and will carry you foreward till you're ready to unload all of it and go with an upscale converter and standalone pres.

That may be true on the Firebox, but according to Presonus Tech Support on the Firestudio you can bypass the Presonus preamps by using inputs 3 thru 8 and using a 1/4" line in from your preamp of choice. You can not use an XLR connection and bypass the Presonus preamps. Not the case on the Firebox.

This is not what I've heard from Presonus themselves. I've spent hours on the phone with them for various reasons (their tech support is great, very small, great guys!). The 1/4" inputs on all channels do still run through the preamps, but it just says neutral enough that it doesn't really seem to affect it. This is the case on, what I've heard from them, the Firebox, Firestudio Project, and Firepod. I'm not as sure about the regular Firestudio, I believe I read somewhere that on the Firestudio they can be bypassed, which might be what you're referring to, but not to the other three units mentioned here. But this stuff is written all over Presonus' forums, which are pretty nice. The people who work there give pretty decent answers, including this one.

[Producer/Engineer]

[/quote]
I'm not as sure about the regular Firestudio, I believe I read somewhere that on the Firestudio they can be bypassed, which might be what you're referring to, [/quote]

Yes, this is what I'm referring to ... before I purchased the Firestudio, I spoke to the great guys at Presonus Tech Support about the fact that I only wanted to purchase and use the Firestudio if I could bypass the preamps inside the Firestudio. This is when they explained to me that I should use channels 3 thru 8 only and NOT use an XLR connection but only use a 1/4" balanced line in coming from my preamps out. Just to be sure, I contacted them twice, speaking to a different tech guy each time and each time I was told that connecting the preamp of my choice in the above mentioned manner would bypass the preamp in the Firestudio.

[jgimbel]

Yes, this is what I'm referring to ... before I purchased the Firestudio, I spoke to the great guys at Presonus Tech Support about the fact that I only wanted to purchase and use the Firestudio if I could bypass the preamps inside the Firestudio. This is when they explained to me that I should use channels 3 thru 8 only and NOT use an XLR connection but only use a 1/4" balanced line in coming from my preamps out. Just to be sure, I contacted them twice, speaking to a different tech guy each time and each time I was told that connecting the preamp of my choice in the above mentioned manner would bypass the preamp in the Firestudio.

Yep..I believe you, we're not disagreeing pal. That is the way to bypass preamps in the Firestudio. However the OP asked specifically about the Firepod (older version of what is now the Firestudio Project) and the Firebox, NOT the Firestudio. These units are built differently from the Firestudio, in that you cannot truly bypass the preamps in them, only leave them neutral (which happens to work just fine, as we've discussed in this thread).