Space Echo Headaches!

[thenapking]

I'd really appreciate some help from you knowledgeable fellows on here. I bought an RE-201 Space Echo back in November and had it serviced.
Having not owned one of these units before it was difficult to tell whether it was in working order. But it's hardly ever usable because the echoes are so warbly. Quite often the tape sticks. I've replaced the tape recently, and it ran ok for a couple of hours, but it's not working well now. I wonder if I have the same problem as this guy.
There doesn't seem to be quite the same level of tape wear, but there is some.
So, where should I start? How do I-

-Check the motor
-Replace the felt pads
-Check the heads
-Check the pinch roller

Cheers!

[TheRealRoach]

I'd be willing to bet that it's the tape heads and/or age of the tape. My Korg Stage Echo has 6 heads. That's a lot of friction if the heads are dirty or the tape is old. Even a bit will cause the tape to momentarily slow down or stick. Clean the heads thoroughly, and make sure any tape guides are clean as well. Put new tape on and try it again.

(When your machine was serviced what did they service exactly if it's in such poor shape?)

[Darlington Pair]

Ok, there are bunches of great tutorials on the web about cleaning the heads, de-magnetizing, and other such tape machine maintenance, so I won't go into it because a google search will turn up pictures of how to do it.

1. Is it humid where you live?
2. What kind of tape was used for the replacement?

If they did the common thing of use some 457 as a replacement tape, it will usually start sticking in a couple of hours, I've seen it in as little as ten minutes when I lived in Florida. You need lubricated tape, preferably of the cobalt lubricated tape persuasion (the kind found in radio station carts) but silicone lubed is good too (the kind found in 8 tracks)

The first place I would look is bad tape/dirty heads.

The second place I would look is the rubber pinch roller. It needs to be lubed, I've often seen these with old dry grease and barely spinning. It could be hard, dirty, covered in lubricant (I've heard of dub guys using oil on their tape, this seems really bad to me) it could be shiny and need re-surfacing. check out http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ for info on cleaning and such, he can also make you a replacement.

Hope this helps

[thenapking]

First off, thanks for the replies! The service replaced the Op-Amp used for the reverb (it had blown) and aligned the heads. That was a major improvement, as the unit was pretty far from functional when I got it.
I've replaced the tape recently, I don't think the tape is particularly old. I've got the loop from a friend who also has an Space Echo. His works fine w/o lubrication on the tape. I think it's the Zonal equivalent of 457. It's not particularly humid here, but the "air quality" is a bit poor at the moment.
Could you link me to a guide on how to clean tape heads? Thinking about the path the tape runs through, the felt pads look old, and they're not exactly smooth. Any idea how (or even whether) they could be replaced?
I was advised to try sanding the pinch roller with fine grade sand paper and then clean it with meths. i've done this a couple of times with no improvement, but i wouldn't say the surface is shiny. What would you lube it or the tape with? I'm in the UK so probably it will be too expensive to use Terry's rubber rollers, but it might just be worth replacing that straight off.

[Darlington Pair]

http://www.taperecorder.co.uk/cleaning.htm

Hasn't Zonal been out of business for several years, if tape isn't stored properly (and sometimes even when it has) the adhesive degrades after 7 years. And if it's the equivalent of 457 then that's a second strike against it. I see on the internet all the time these guys that use 457 with no problem, I've never met anybody, including myself, that has been able to get more than a few hours out of it without it going all wobbly. I guess some machines are more forgiving than others, but I've never actually met one. I have a 101 and a 501 and neither one will run without lubricated tape, I have regular access to a 2 201's, 301, and a 150 and none of them would run for crap when all we could find was 456, 457, 408, 480, 499... we tried them all. The RMG VM series tape is supposed to be a replacement for 3m 8206 and you might be able to get that, lubricated logging tape, cart tape, 8 track tape.

I'm going to bet that your machine does not like mastering tape.

[thenapking]

Cool. Thanks for the guide, I'm going to get my cotton buds out tomorrow
Anyways, i've checked my old emails and the tape I got from my friend is Quantegy, not Zonal, but I'm not sure what. He recommended that I use Zonal 700.
What should I lubricate the pinch roller with btw?

[thenapking]

i cleaned the tape path today, and there is a noticeable improvement. It's certainly less warbly. However the tape still sticks a lot - I have to jog the pinch wheel at least 2 or 3 times a minute. I did try lubricating the motor etc. with WD40 earlier. What would cause it to stick? How can I tell if the pinch wheel needs to be replaced? I doesn't look cracked or dried out. It's not that smooth, but then I don't know how smooth it should be.
I'm going to get some of the RMG VM tape you are recommending. Should I get 953?
Thanks for your help so far, definitely feel like I'm getting somewhere.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i think you probably just need to get the right tape. i've used 456 in mine forever, because i'm lazy and it's what i have around, but it does get sticky relatively quickly. maybe try these guys?

http://www.grssystems.com/item1003.htm

[thenapking]

I'm quite happy cutting the tape loops myself - it's much cheaper. I just need the right tape. I've been recommended Zonal 700 (which is unlubricated afaik) and RMG VM. Still waiting on a price on the latter from the distributor. Anyone else got any suggestions... ?

[Darlington Pair]

Well RMG says that the VM tape is the equivalent of 3M/Quantegy 8206 which is lubricated tape for low speed logging machines like 911 and black box recording, it has a more limited frequency response, but for what we're using it for it's perfect.

Here's the problem, 3M and Quantegy state in their datasheets that it is lubricated, and RMG claims that it's equivalent, but I can't find anywhere that says it's lubricated.... so I can't 100% guarantee that it's the right thing.

For lubing the pinch roller, you have to make sure that it's not going to get all over everything, some grease on the tape, tape patch, and rubber part of the roller will cause nothing but problems. I usually use high temp bearing grease cut with sewing machine oil until I get the consistency I want so that it will be thick enough to stay in place but not thing enough to spin out all over everything, I've been doing it a long time and have a feel for how thick it should be, I'm sure there is a proper grease for this, but I tried a bunch of things and this seemed to work best for me.

WD-40 is a penetrating oil and not really meant to lubricate motors, it will dissolve the bearing grease and make it run, it's not really a good idea to lubricate anything on the space echo with it.

If your motor is strong, then don't mess with it. It's likely that your sticking problem is more related to tape formulation, improper tension on the pinch roller, dirty tape path, pinch roller not gripping the capstan properly.

[Dr Rubberfunk]

thenapking - as you're in the UK, I guess you've seen these guys?
http://www.mytapeecho.com/page/831237

Never used them myself, but they do explicitly state that the tape is self-lubricating etc as per og Roland specs ... Mixed reports in a thread on gearslutz, but at a tenner, maybe worth a punt? I suspect cheaper than buying RMG 1/4inch reel too ...?

Also, as waverly mentioned, keep an eye out at boot-fairs for 8-track carts, and scour the UK pro-audio resellers for old radio / broadcast cart machines ...

[thenapking]

It looks like ProTape stock RMG in the UK so I'll ask them if it's self-lubricating.
I've looked in the service manual and it seems that to properly adjust the pinch wheel tension you need a newton meter, which, unsurprisingly, I don't have. could I do this 'by eye'? If the pinch wheel were not gripping the capstan, would I just need to replace the pinch wheel? So many questions!
OK - so I did lubricate the motor with WD40 a month ago, should I now re-grease that to undo damage I may have done?