Adventures in LOUD amp recording

[losthighway]

I have been working with a very cool band in the 'stoner rock' catagory (think Sleep, Kyuss, Black Sabbath etc). They brought in a very nice, expensive custom tube head that is 300 Watts! They insisted that it be used on all the guitar tracks. With volume at 3 it made me get my ear plugs before being in the same room, anything lower and the tone was choked. I have recorded tons of Orange, and Sovtek amps before, this was the loudest thing I have ever seen in my studio.

It challenged an SM7 to be close mic'd without SPL noises, and my AT 4033 couldn't get closer than four feet without crackle. And that was only for scratch tracks. (I kept my ribbon mic hidden in the mic closet). The dude decided he wanted to record it opened up a little more, since he thought the tone was suffering with the volume at 3.

I ended up recording it with two LDC's about 5-6 feet away, as much in line with the speakers as you can visualize at that distance. The gain on my pre's was set really, really, low and the -10db pads were on for both mics. It actually ended up being a decent guitar tone. Turns out a deafening amp sounds pretty immediate mic'd five feet away, just like a reasonable amp sounds pretty immediate mic'd five inches away.

[kslight]

Curiously though, a doubling in power (watts) only equals approximately 3db increase in volume....so it really shouldn't be much louder than a 100 watt at all..at full power. Attenuated he's not even using a lot of that power... So while it's undoubtedly a loud amp, cranked it wouldn't be substantially louder than a cranked 50 or 100 watt...

[Snarl 12/8]

Maybe I'll get some shit for saying this, but I really believe not all watts are created equal. One guy's 300 watt amp could really be a shitload louder than some other guy's 100 watt head. I've heard the term "100 'conservatively rated' watts" and stuff before. Which is maybe where I got this idea from.

Also, (again, my belief) the pairing with the speakers is very important. There could be cabs out there that really let those 300 watts sing like Pavoratti and other cabs that would make them sound like a whimpering, smothered baby.

Sounds like this is the situation where having some good room treatment really pays off.

[kslight]

Maybe I'll get some shit for saying this, but I really believe not all watts are created equal. One guy's 300 watt amp could really be a shitload louder than some other guy's 100 watt head. I've heard the term "100 'conservatively rated' watts" and stuff before. Which is maybe where I got this idea from.

Also, (again, my belief) the pairing with the speakers is very important. There could be cabs out there that really let those 300 watts sing like Pavoratti and other cabs that would make them sound like a whimpering, smothered baby.

Sounds like this is the situation where having some good room treatment really pays off.

Of course I am referring to a direct apples to apples comparison... Efficiency in cabinet design, speaker, signal chain, player, will obviously make a difference.

The real question is what does he think he need all that power for? What practical situation would allow you to fully open it unattenuated? I really believe that for MOST a good small app would do just as well if not better for both live sound and recording, unless you play shows without a PA...in which case I think that amp would take over the whole band..

[losthighway]

Agreed, 300W is a pretty nebulous attempt at quantifying what was rattling my intestine. Whatever you call it, that thing was loud enough to drown out a drummer with the master volume at 4.

I must admit it. I don't get it. The wall of amps thing always seems like a cheap (really expensive, and painful) gimmick to me. Granted, a small handful of bands have done that and been great but I meet so many nice dudes around town that are so fixated on gear, and 'heaviness' that they forget that writing interesting music could ever be a priority. Fortunately that was not true of the band I was working with.

Sometimes I wanna make a treaty with some of these kids: "Everyone can switch to 2x12 cabinets, or Hot Rod Devilles, we will all take our ear plugs out and then maybe your drummer will finally be glad he tunes his floor toms because we will actually hear them at the performance. It will still be 'heavy'."

[MoreSpaceEcho]

^^^^^^ yes.

life in my last band:

\\: me: can't you turn your amps down? singer/guitarist: can't you hit your drums harder? :\\

[kslight]

No doubt...in my personal experience I get better sounding heavy guitar results out of stuff like a Peavey Classic 30 and Fender Tweed Bassman than I get out of a Triple Recto or whatever... But whatever works for them I guess..

[Bro Shark]

If they'll let you get away with it, you could try pulling tubes.

[JGriffin]

^^^^^^ yes.

life in my last band:

\\: me: can't you turn your amps down? singer/guitarist: can't you hit your drums harder? :\\

In my current band, the other guitarist continually turns up and then complains he can't hear my guitar.

...of course, I've always been the guy to whom the house mixer says, "you know, you can turn up a little."

[jgimbel]

In my current band, the other guitarist continually turns up and then complains he can't hear my guitar.

I'm with you. I play rhythm guitar in a friend's band, he's the lead singer/guitarist. We'll spend a good while adjusting things (even at practices) so we're all balanced - drums are clear, bass is sitting nicely with kick, rhythm guitar is filling everything out nicely, lead guitar a little louder than rhythm so it doesn't get lost, perfect. Slowly throughout the practice the lead guy will turn himself up more and more. I think the culprit is that even in the small practice room he stands in front of his amp as if on stage, so he can't hear himself as well as we can. So it takes being ear-shatteringly loud for him to hear himself.

[JGriffin]

In my current band, the other guitarist continually turns up and then complains he can't hear my guitar.

I'm with you. I play rhythm guitar in a friend's band, he's the lead singer/guitarist. We'll spend a good while adjusting things (even at practices) so we're all balanced - drums are clear, bass is sitting nicely with kick, rhythm guitar is filling everything out nicely, lead guitar a little louder than rhythm so it doesn't get lost, perfect. Slowly throughout the practice the lead guy will turn himself up more and more. I think the culprit is that even in the small practice room he stands in front of his amp as if on stage, so he can't hear himself as well as we can. So it takes being ear-shatteringly loud for him to hear himself.

We tend to encourage him to aim the amp more at himself and less at us...

[Fletcher]

(I kept my ribbon mic hidden in the mic closet.

Why? If the speakers can take it, so can a ribbon mic. I was on a session a while ago where we had 2x 130w amps, each producing [max] 122db SPL aimed at each other with the cabinets wired out of polarity [so all 8 drivers would be moving in the same direction as the cabinets were facing one another]. The amps were placed 4ft. apart with a Royer R-121 in the middle at the 2' mark.

It handled the SPL without a struggle... and sounded freakin' amazing!!!!

It actually ended up being a decent guitar tone.

Which at the end of the day is all that matter... no?

[kslight]

In my current band, the other guitarist continually turns up and then complains he can't hear my guitar.

I'm with you. I play rhythm guitar in a friend's band, he's the lead singer/guitarist. We'll spend a good while adjusting things (even at practices) so we're all balanced - drums are clear, bass is sitting nicely with kick, rhythm guitar is filling everything out nicely, lead guitar a little louder than rhythm so it doesn't get lost, perfect. Slowly throughout the practice the lead guy will turn himself up more and more. I think the culprit is that even in the small practice room he stands in front of his amp as if on stage, so he can't hear himself as well as we can. So it takes being ear-shatteringly loud for him to hear himself.

That or he is sustaining hearing damage at practice. When I've been in a band I've always practiced through some kind of PA. One band I didn't mic the guitar or bass because it was such a small room...used the PA for vocals and electronics. I used a 5 watt tube amp and the bassist used a practice amp. Another band had a space that was larger, I put my Tweed Bassman in another room and miked it and fed into the PA. I've also had success using amp modelers for stage or practice purposes.

[kslight]

In my current band, the other guitarist continually turns up and then complains he can't hear my guitar.

I'm with you. I play rhythm guitar in a friend's band, he's the lead singer/guitarist. We'll spend a good while adjusting things (even at practices) so we're all balanced - drums are clear, bass is sitting nicely with kick, rhythm guitar is filling everything out nicely, lead guitar a little louder than rhythm so it doesn't get lost, perfect. Slowly throughout the practice the lead guy will turn himself up more and more. I think the culprit is that even in the small practice room he stands in front of his amp as if on stage, so he can't hear himself as well as we can. So it takes being ear-shatteringly loud for him to hear himself.

That or he is sustaining hearing damage at practice. When I've been in a band I've always practiced through some kind of PA. One band I didn't mic the guitar or bass because it was such a small room...used the PA for vocals and electronics. I used a 5 watt tube amp and the bassist used a practice amp. Another band had a space that was larger, I put my Tweed Bassman in another room and miked it and fed into the PA. I've also had success using amp modelers for stage or practice purposes.

[Nick Sevilla]

But...

Everything sounds better when it is louder.

I had a funny experience with a veteran guitar player a few months ago :

We were replacing some electric guitar parts on a record, and instead of the artist and this guitar player re-recording in their usual manner, they came to my studio.

First thing I asked the guy to do, was to TURN IT UP. Until it was nice and loud and bouncing off the walls and our bodies.

Then, I got headphones on, and went about placing my 5 microphones of choice.

They both looked at me as if I was insane.. UNTIL...

They heard the first test recording through the DAW.

"How did you do that? ... why does it sound so much better than the previous recording(done with the same gear)?"

As it happens, I asked them how loud they had the amp when they did the bad sounding stuff. "Not too loud, the neighbors might complain".

This is Rock N Roll, screw the neighbors.

Pushing air is still a very good thing to do with electric guitars. I love filling a room with the sound, and then placing mics at different places to get all of it recorded. Then I can choose which of the 5 mics to use in each song mix.

Cheers