That kind of snare sound

losthighway · Post by **losthighway** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:08 pm

I keep wanting to attain this certain snare sound, and I've tried some tuning, muffling, mic'ing combination's and I can't quite get it figured out.

So for you drum experts, I mean this kind of sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofKwlfViDK8

Drums don't come in for a minute.

What would your guess be, metal or wood? Loose top head, tight bottom? Some dry type of Evans head?

Top and bottom mic, or just top?

And I mean generally, I know better than to literally try and copy a tone (never happens).

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:14 pm

nice and chunky. low tuned snare - sounds like maybe brushes. it's a really low res mp3 so i can't totally tell. def top and btm mics - maybe try a condenser on the top with some proximity effect for extra thumpiness. my guess is a wood snare but i have heard metal drums sound surprisingly "warm" too. cool song.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:23 pm

Well, that's Matt Chamberlain, who's left hand I can ALWAYS tell in a heartbeat. Something about that guy's technique that kind of surpasses everyone else's in terms of identifiable sound. Definitely playing brushes on this. The drum's not too tight, but the snares aren't really loose. I would guess it's a muffled wood drum, but I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong about the shell material. It's much harder to tell with an mp3.

Photo #47 on his website shows Chamberlain, but no clear shot of the snare. Looks like there could be a cloth of some kind draped across it, but I can't imagine that it's going all the way across the drum. That would make it nearly impossible to play with brushes. Photo #54 shows the guys crowded around a mic and it looks like there may be a 5x14-ish DW snare drum in the back, but that doesnt' necessarily mean anything.

I like the hi hat sound on this, too. Sounds like really small cymbals, which can be kind of hokey sometimes.

Do you know where this was done? That control room kind of looks like Sunset Sound Studio Two, but if it is, I wonder when they switched consoles. I can't tell whether that studio is Sunset's Two.

Thanks for passing this along. I hadn't heard this record yet. It's nice. It's kind of hard to go wrong with that crew of people.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:33 pm

matt chamberlain is the master of the chunk. i would wager that there is def dampening on that snare - mon gels/oring etc...

i find a tea towel really cuts down on the top end a lot and it doesn't sound muffled - but like chris said - maybe it's just along an edge or something. there is really not a lot of decay- nice and short.

btw i just picked this up on itunes for $7.92!!

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:49 pm

Hey Chris, just curious, but what is it about Matt Chamberlain's snare hand that you can always tell? I'm a big fan of his, but I admit that I probably couldn't tell just by how a drummer hits a snare.
Carol Kaye's right hand, on the other hand - that dampening is like no other.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:55 pm

There's something about the way the stick makes contact with the head. Like, his snare drum ALWAYS sounds like it has a certain kind of compression on it. Whenever I see an early 90s episode of SNL, as soon as the band starts, I can tell if it was the '91-'92 season, just by the snare drum sound. It doesn't matter what snare drum he's playing or how it's miked or whatever. It always has a bit of that sound.

Certain guys just have that. Stewart Copeland has it. John Bonham had it. Ringo has it. Nick Mason has it.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

losthighway · Post by **losthighway** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:32 pm

Fascinating. Thanks for the feedback dudes. Yeah, it's an incredible album if you have a love for sort of classical/jazz instrumental music. I love this stuff. Mehldau, Dave Douglas, Paul Motian, all those people made me realize there is still cool jazz music happening today.

I think I just need to tinker with my snares more. I have some recordings coming up where I'm playing drums and it seems to beg for that snare sound, I just can't seem to get it the way I want, and that song is the perfect example. Glenn Kotche gets a snare sound with a similar appeal. I just love how it's muffled, yet the sound changes slightly after the attack without really sustaining. It's as if you hear the stick, and then the wires a millisecond afterwords.

Gregg Juke · Post by **Gregg Juke** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:06 pm

I would try a larger drum (14X6 & 1/2 rather than 14X5 & 1/2); I have a metal Pearl drum that makes that kind of sound, so you could go metal or wood.

Not just the drum and the mics, but the actual snares (width and number) can change the tone too. As mentioned, not too loose, but not too tight. Same for tuning (you don't want to choke the drum).

You could use some light muffling, maybe moon-gel, but don't over-do.

I would use a donut muffler/dead-ringer (you can make one from an old head).

Not a big fan of the under-snare microphone, but it could work if used sparingly.

Definitely good to go with a dynamic on the top...

GJ

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:21 pm

My method for that kind of thing would be a thinner drum--5" or 5.5"-- not a piccolo or anything, with a good amount of muffling (probably an O-ring kind of thing) and a soft touch. A faux calf head, like a Fiberskyn or Renaissance head might help with the thick low-mid and soft attack sound. A larger set of snares (20-strand, as opposed to 16) will allow you to get more sensitivity and a little more snare sound, even with the snares a bit tighter.

If I were playing with sticks, a few sheets of paper over the top head would get me there faster, but it doesn't work too well for brush playing. Same as the tea towel idea.

I think the right kind of condenser mic would work in this scenario without the need for a bottom mic. (I don't hear that as a bottom mic-type sound, although there may be one in use. It's certainly not at a Jack Joseph Puig kind of volume-- just barely audible if it is there.) Something like a Sony C-38 would totally help you get this kind of sound from the top of the drum in a heartbeat. Something like a U87 would also get you headed in that direction, as would a KM84, KM86, Blue Mouse, etc.

The room sound is also important in this equation in that it's not a very lively room. Or at the very least, the drums aren't setting off the sound of the room. It looks to me like the drums in that video are surrounded by heavy-duty gobos and it sounds to me like the majority of the drum sound is coming from the close mics inside the gobo area.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:01 am

cgarges wrote:
If I were playing with sticks, a few sheets of paper over the top head would get me there faster,

this is a great trick. as is puting an extra inverted drum head on top of the actual drum head. or the old stax wallet trick. i love recording drums!!

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:25 am

joninc wrote:this is a great trick.

Yeah, I've been doing that for years. Instant "Abbey Road." I did that at Inner Ear last year and Don Zientara was freaked out (in a good way). He'd never seen that before but he thought it was a great trick. I do love that sound.

Speaking of Matt Chamberlain, I finished my gig tonight and started packing up and the bar turned on some music. Not too loud, kind of quiet, actually. Anyway, I was packing up and all of a sudden, I hear this snare drum and immediately flash to this thread. Within one measure, I knew it was Chamberlain and then realized that they were playing "One Headlight." That left hand, man!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:01 am

cgarges wrote:If I were playing with sticks, a few sheets of paper over the top head would get me there faster, but it doesn't work too well for brush playing. Same as the tea towel idea.

Dumb question, but do you tape the paper to the rim or anything like that?

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:51 am

Beautiful song, thanx!

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:13 am

mjau wrote:Dumb question, but do you tape the paper to the rim or anything like that?

I tape all four corners of the paper to the head with gaffer's tape.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

mjau · Post by **mjau** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:23 am

Sweet. I just tried the paper thing, and it works great! Like a tea towel, but with more attack.

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