Uneven Kick Drum Solution?

[treelzebub]

Hi!

I am in the midst of a pro bono recording session, as I am a total amateur. I've been recording for 10 years, but this is the first time I've used multitracking into a DAW. I'm using a MOTU 8Pre, into Cubase 5.

Anyway, I'm fairly pleased with my learning curve so far, though I know there are TONS of room for improvement. Right now I specifically need help with the uneven dynamics of the kick drum in this particular track. Sometimes the drummer hit it softly, other times not.

This track already has over 200 edits in it, so I'd really love not having to adjust every kick hit by hand. Should I use compression or a limiter? Some other sort of VST plugin? I have no outboard gear.

Here is the track: http://www.tremurillo.com/files/Ground.8.25.10.mp3

Thanks for reading and listening :)
-tre

[Chris_Avakian]

yup

[casey campbell]

Hi!

I am in the midst of a pro bono recording session, as I am a total amateur. I've been recording for 10 years, but this is the first time I've used multitracking into a DAW. I'm using a MOTU 8Pre, into Cubase 5.

Anyway, I'm fairly pleased with my learning curve so far, though I know there are TONS of room for improvement. Right now I specifically need help with the uneven dynamics of the kick drum in this particular track. Sometimes the drummer hit it softly, other times not.

This track already has over 200 edits in it, so I'd really love not having to adjust every kick hit by hand. Should I use compression or a limiter? Some other sort of VST plugin? I have no outboard gear.

Here is the track: http://www.tremurillo.com/files/Ground.8.25.10.mp3

Thanks for reading and listening
-tre

well, if you had drumagog, you could just set the threshold and use 1 or 2 samples...

there is a free vst version similar to drumagog on kvr, but i can't remember the name. that should handle it.

[farview]

After listening to it, I really couldn't hear the kick all that well. But it seems that the dynamics are pretty appropriate. A compressor at 4/1 should smooth it out enough to work. It really doesn't seem that far out of whack.

[casey campbell]

check it:

http://stormrecordingstudio.co.uk/ - something called "drumtriga"

kt drum trigger: http://www.smartelectronix.com/~koen/

also, if you can get the js vst stuff from reaper, there's one built there too.

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi,

You mention 200 edits for the kick.

When you were editing, did it ever occur to you that the dynamics would be an issue?

Ok, enough of the slogging.

Make a completely new audio track. Under the current bad kick one.

Go through the original kick track, and select the best sounding kicks, and copy them down to the new track. (You do know how to do this and not move them forwards and backwards in time?)

Once you have about 12 good kicks, the fun begins.

You should bake a mental or better yet a layout of the dynamics of the song, you know, where it is louder and where it is softer.

Now, take your 12 or so good kicks, put them at the very top of your new track. This is your "kick reserve"...

Determine the louder parts of the song from your dynamics map, and then select the loudest 8 kicks.

Start pasting away with only those 8 loudest kicks in the loudest parts of the song. Keep some variance by using all 8 in somewhat random patterns, to keep the kick sounding as if a real drummer played it.

Then go to the next-loudest part, etc.

Remember that each time you select for the less loud parts, start selecting from the pool of 12, BUT do not select the loudest 4 kicks. This way you won't accidentally have those in softer sections of the song.

YES, IT IS A LONG PROCESS. But, you could have tracked with a compressor. Or put the mic closer to the beater / different placement to minimize the dynamic differences of the player.

If your editing chops are good, you should have a good new kick track in about 20-30 minutes tops. then listen to the whole thing, and adjust only the really obvious ones that do not work in their spot.

Now, when mixing you'll still want to use a compressor, or limiter, depending on the song style.

Cheers

[chris harris]

Good grief!!! Triggers?!!?!? Hours and hours of editing?!?

Just use a compressor. This situation is sort of exactly what they're commonly used for!

The OP was on the right track to begin with. You don't have to go layering in samples or micro editing. Just dig in and learn how to use compressors. Believe it or not, controlling the dynamics of a bass drum is something that's been a part of audio engineering since long before Drumagog and DAWs.

[xonlocust]

Good grief!!! Triggers?!!?!? Hours and hours of editing?!?

Just use a compressor. This situation is sort of exactly what they're commonly used for!

The OP was on the right track to begin with. You don't have to go layering in samples or micro editing. Just dig in and learn how to use compressors. Believe it or not, controlling the dynamics of a bass drum is something that's been a part of audio engineering since long before Drumagog and DAWs.

+1. i was gonna say jesus guys, how do you think every record pre the last ~10yrs was done?

i usually track kick flat w/o compression and only have compression on the return so the band doesn't get all wacky w/how it sounds, but i'm not painted into a corner since seems like every song really needs a slightly different setting when it comes down to it. also, a lot of times i have a kick in, and kick out. i like to compress the in channel, but leave the out ch au natural so there's consitancy - but retain a little dynamic life.

[cgarges]

The problem I have with just using a normal compressor on a guy with really wild kick drum dynamics is that the tone of the drum changes SO MUCH. The louder notes are always brighter and the quieter notes are always duller. Most compressors just make those problems worse.

For me, the quick and easy solution is to use a frequency-dependent compressor like a Urei LA-22. This is different from using the side-chain on a full-spectrum compressor, but not unlike using a good de-esser. The LA-22 has crazy controls and can get really specific and by using the frequency-dependent filter features, it's kind of good for just taming the bright stuff. It can also be super-fast, which is what you need for doing this king of thing. Once I've got the LA-22 dialed-in and the drum is sounding a little more consistent, I usually hit it with another full-range compressor after that. I imagine you could do the same thing with one of those BSS DPR-901s, but I haven't ever tried this trick with one of those. There's probably some good frequency-specific plug-in dynamics stuff that would do it, too.

Paging MoreSpaceEcho...

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[jnTracks]

try a compressor, it works a lot of the time but cgarges is right and if your track is really bad don't be so scared of something like drumagog or soundreplacer. (though i can't imagine doing it by hand like noeqplease suggests)

use them to make a new track and mix it with the original. i pretty much never "replace" a drum in a mix but i also pretty much never don't mix in a trigger track.

[farview]

With as little kick as there is in that mix, I don't even really hear the problem. Strap a compressor on it and call it a day.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

Paging MoreSpaceEcho...

*strolls in with chest puffed out*

well y'see, what you wanna do in a situation where you got yourself an uneven kick drum is..uh...um...i don't actually know anything about this shit. i just keep moving mics and doing takes until it sounds good, and then i leave it entirely alone. really.

i usually don't mind a dynamic kick drum, if you have a good drummer they'll play that way on porpoise. i think it has something to do with being musical. not sure. but unless it's a metal tune i don't think that every single kick hit has to be a jackhammer in the face. if i do have a situation where the kick's too dynamic for the song, i usually find that there's a couple hits that are way louder than everything else, almost always on the downbeats at the start of sections. so i just automate those down and call it a day.

anywhat,

When you were editing, did it ever occur to you that the dynamics would be an issue?

is it really necessary to be a dick? did jeff subcontract out to you or something?

[treelzebub]

You mention 200 edits for the kick.

Oh guys-- I'm sorry that I was unclear in my wording. I meant that the *whole song* contains over 200 waveform edits--meaning edits for continuity, not just quick fades at the end of vocal lines. I'm sure this is not the first time the word "track" has caused confusion between song and instrument... Apologies!

I would really love to retrack this song, to be honest. I'm surprised that the editing is not horribly audible. The larger story here is that I recorded these songs a couple months ago, and have since moved away. I am stuck with what I have, drumwise. And to be honest, I'm not happy with the general sound of the kit, but oh well.

I will fiddle with compression first. Any suggestions for a quality VST compressor for this purpose? Unfortunately, I'm not prepared to buy any outboard gear at this time :\

If that doesn't work, I will look into sound replacers.

And if THAT doesn't work, then I will probably eat too many nachos and fall asleep watching Lifetime Original Movies.

Thank you so much for all the points of view! Much appreciated.
-Tre

[Jay Reynolds]

did jeff subcontract out to you or something?

Please don't even joke about that. If Nick goes over to the dark side, I'm going to break the internet.

[cgarges]

i don't actually know anything about this shit. i just keep moving mics and doing takes until it sounds good, and then i leave it entirely alone. really.

Yeah, but you probably know of a decent frequency-dependent dynamic plug-in for what I was suggesting, right?

And if THAT doesn't work, then I will probably eat too many nachos and fall asleep watching Lifetime Original Movies.

Man, that sounds like a horrible way to die.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC