Symetrix 501 help request

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evilaudio
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Symetrix 501 help request

Post by evilaudio » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:39 pm

I purchased one off Ebay as a mate for my "toggle-switch" version (VP) a few years ago and when it arrived it looked like it took a smash in the face at some point. It worked, but was about 10db hotter than my other 501 and the output attenuator was very intermittent, probably causing the imbalance between signals. When I physically turned the Output Pot, the shaft was grinding inside the enclosure. I opened the chassis and found the part to be very loose from the legs to the PCB and was pretty much destroyed. The Clip indicator did not illuminate either. Well, I found another 501 (toggle switch version) to try and swap the parts with, but IT TOO got damaged and the same pot I needed was useless, so finding myself out of options, and no source for the exact replacement, I used the "ratio" pot from the bunk 501 instead since it had the same printed value on the back, just no center detent like the original OP pot had*. It passes signal and seems to behave normally, but the output is drastically different than my good working non-damaged 501 of the same "type" (surely because it's not the correct pot). I sometimes need to use them in stereo, but am always unsure of the stability of the frankensteined one.

So, in your opinion, do you think what I did was an okay fix, or could I be messing the circuit up further?

If I can replace the OP pot with something similar, do you know a replacement type model# or of a way to get one?

It seems to behave pretty much normally except for the OP. If it's a quick easy fix, I'd love to fix it! Any other mods or upgrade advice is welcomed, too!


The removed pots shown are the damaged OP pots I need a replacement for. *In the picture with the measuring tape, the OP pot is on the left and the RATIO pot is on the right, so you can see why I assumed it was the same (just no center detent).

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Post by Katzenjammer » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:55 pm

wish I could offer some help, I'm eager to find out myself as I just picked up a 501 today that looks like someone "repaired" in their toolshed (yoinked the XLR connects out - covered the holes with electrical tape). the output knob on mine also seems to be acting strange as well (drastic volume increase from 4 o'clock on). I'm thinking the PO replaced the pot with a linear instead of logarithmic (which would account for the drastic volume jump). does that sound like the same problem? bit of a noob when it comes to this stuff so maybe someone with more experience can chime in...

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Post by evilaudio » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:36 pm

That's what used to happen before I switched the pots out. Not sure what these "center detent" pots are called, technically...

Thanx for chiming in!
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Post by The Scum » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:14 pm

Are the two units the same when the pot in question is either full-up or full-down? (it might take some clever external gain staging to be able to compare)
Not sure what these "center detent" pots are called, technically...
Technically, "center detent pots."
do you know a replacement type model# or of a way to get one?
They look similar to the Alpha pots that Mouser sell.

Take the working pot out of the working unit. Set it to the center of the rotation, then measure the resistance from each end to the center tab. If both sides are in the 25K range, it's a linear pot. If they're imbalanced, it's an audio taper or log pot. We need to be a little paranoid here: even though the original is marked as a "B" taper, there's no agreement between vendors as to what that means.

Then consult here:
http://www.mouser.com/Catalog/catalogusd/642/686.Pdf

It can be tough to get all of the parameters to match - overall diameter, PCB footprint, shaft length, detent, etc. Get as close as you can - taper being more important than the physical details - you could always run flying wires if you had to.

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Post by Peterson Goodwyn » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:07 am

even though the original is marked as a "B" taper, there's no agreement between vendors as to what that means.
Agreed, and wouldn't it be a bit strange for output and ratio pots to be linear?

Also... I know it seems sacrilegious to mess with the working unit, but what if you bought two new pots and replaced both of them? At least that way you would know they are consistent.[/quote]

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Post by evilaudio » Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:41 pm

Thank you for the responses so far!
Are the two units the same when the pot in question is either full-up or full-down? (it might take some clever external gain staging to be able to compare)
I assume you mean my 2 units... And, the pot in question is the Output Gain. Okay, so running a test tone through both simultaneously - one good, one questionable... The "questionable" one is a bit louder than the "good" one when dimed all the way up. Even full down it seems a few db louder at least.
I also am noticing when I set the "good" one to unity (center detent) and level-match it with the "Q" one with the output gain knob, the meter levels on the receiving device read the same, the "good" unit's clip indicator light glows full red (when I push the test tone way up) but the clip indicator on the "Q" 501 is not on at all (output level on meter reads equal, though). It does come on, but you have to feed it even more level far beyond where the "good" one clips. Neither of the two 501's clip light comes on when the test tone is at normal levels. They're definitely behaving differently (although I do not have them strapped/linked, if that even matters).

It will be a while before I can pull them from the rack and get the pots out... It'd be great to just have a simple replacement part to just swap out, test, and hopefully go with... I'm afraid I don't know what "flying wires" is either, but I am good at R&R of PCB components if told what to do.
Also... I know it seems sacrilegious to mess with the working unit, but what if you bought two new pots and replaced both of them? At least that way you would know they are consistent.
Meathands: I'd love to be able to do this! Do you have any suggestions as to what it might be (from the pictures)? Part # or something? From what The Scum linked up, it looks like maybe F or H would maybe work. I just can't tell if they have the center detent which would be nice for the replacements to have... Does Mouser sell to the public in small quantities? I seem to remember getting turned away by them a while ago... (I had to order some obscene amount of parts when I only needed a few.)

Thank you guys!
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Post by The Scum » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm

First, a little more light from Symetrix: they posted the schematic.
http://www.symetrixaudio.com/kb/501_sch.pdf

Is the removed, broken pot servicable, at least to measure? Or even disassemble and look at the guts? Sometimes there are clues in how the track is screened onto the wafer.

I'm guessing that it's an audio taper pot. But to contradict the markings, I've got an Alpha audio taper pot sitting next to me, clearly marked "A" taper, and 8 linears, all marked "B."

As for testing, they're different, but it's hard to know why...they could be different revisions. There are several trimpots inside that could be calibrated differently. There could be some variance between the pots.
I'm afraid I don't know what "flying wires" is either
Using a pot that doesn't fit the PCB (perhaps with the detent, but without the right kind of legs), then running wired from it's legs to the PCB footprint.
I just can't tell if they have the center detent
If they don't say detent, there's probably no detent...
Does Mouser sell to the public in small quantities?
If they stock what you're looking for, they do. If it's not stocked, you might have to meet the factory minimum quantity (which it's looking like, to get the PCB mount, audio taper, flatted shaft, with detent). They're consistently one of the best vendors I deal with...I probably order from the 20+ times a year.

You could always try to most likely source, and see if Symetrix have any spares.

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Post by wkrbee » Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:42 pm

Digikey too
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Post by Katzenjammer » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:07 pm

Well, that solved my problem! Turns out the PO of my 501 replaced the limiter and output pots with the wrong ones (20K linear instead of 50K log). A quick jaunt to the surplus and some soldered flying wires later (thanks for the tip The Scum) and she's running great! I hope the fix goes as painlessly for you evilaudio. Thanks again guys!

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Post by Andy Peters » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:00 pm

Katzenjammer wrote:Well, that solved my problem! Turns out the PO of my 501 replaced the limiter and output pots with the wrong ones (20K linear instead of 50K log). A quick jaunt to the surplus and some soldered flying wires later (thanks for the tip The Scum) and she's running great! I hope the fix goes as painlessly for you evilaudio. Thanks again guys!
For the record, since I couldn't find identical replacement pots for my 501 either, I just found something with the correct value and the right shaft to fit the knobs and fly-wired the pot connections to the PCB.

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Post by evilaudio » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:27 pm

So, I just need to find a 50K Logarithmic pot with 3 "legs" like this and I'll be good to go? Any online resource links? You guys just found yours locally?
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Post by Katzenjammer » Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:13 am

yep. a repair place tried to sell me a fender guitar pot for 8 bucks, which I'd have to trim some excess hardware from, but just ended up finding some for .99 cents at my local surplus. 50K logarithmic. worked like a charm. getting two of the same make to match output/behavior is a good idea, I would think.

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Post by Andy Peters » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:49 pm

evilaudio wrote:So, I just need to find a 50K Logarithmic pot with 3 "legs" like this and I'll be good to go? Any online resource links? You guys just found yours locally?
I think I found the pot at Mouser or DigiKey.

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:42 am

thanks for all the tips on this page. Need to replace the center detent pot and the limiter pot on a unit i just picked up. I'll see if I can use the same method as Katzenjammer and just replace them with 50k's and fix it.

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Post by ott0bot » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:03 pm

Just got a reply from Symetrix:
Thanks for your inquiry and use of our products.

Unfortunately, we no longer have parts available for the 501 as it is an unsupported product. Though I can provide you with part and original vendor information:

501 Pots:

040010
1 qty
15A-50K OHM 16MM PNL POT
R83
Noble USA Inc
V16(7X6.5)PH2DN18F-15A-50K

040030
3 qty
B-50K OHM 16MM PNL POT
R43 R82 R96
Noble USA Inc
V16L4(7X6.5)PH2DN18F-B-50K

040040
1 qty
B-50K (DETENT) 16MM PNL POT
R11
Noble USA Inc
V16L4PH2HDN18F-B-50K

040060
1 qty
15A-500K OHM 16MM PNL POT
R89
Noble USA Inc
V16L4(7X6.5)PH2DN18F-15A-500K


I hope that helps and let me know if you have any further questions.
So i'm guessing the 1 with a detent is the output pot.
But which one is the limiter pot?

They weren't sure either:
Unfortunately, because it?s unsupported I don?t have any more info, but if you remove the top cover you can tell which pot is for what function by looking at the reference designator. It will show something like ?R83? or ?R43? silkscreened on the board next to the pot.
I'll have to take a look. But knowing what type of pot the R83 and R43 are should point in the right direction.

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