Blind Taste Test: Passive Summing vs ITB

[losthighway]

I love that idea. Unfortunately it's not my mix, so maybe the OP would be down to try it.

He could send it to me and we could compare Mackie vs. Soundcraft, but that's all I have to offer (sorta budget vs. mid-grade board idea).

[Nick Sevilla]

I love that idea. Unfortunately it's not my mix, so maybe the OP would be down to try it.

He could send it to me and we could compare Mackie vs. Soundcraft, but that's all I have to offer (sorta budget vs. mid-grade board idea).

Oops... anyway hopefully the OP reads this, and considers doing it, so at least we can listen to different consoles, especially the ones everyone here uses.

Cheers

[spacelabstudio]

I love that idea. Unfortunately it's not my mix, so maybe the OP would be down to try it.

He could send it to me and we could compare Mackie vs. Soundcraft, but that's all I have to offer (sorta budget vs. mid-grade board idea).

My concern is with the size of the files. At 96k/24bit across 16 or so channels, it adds up fast. I'm also not sure how valuable running the mixes in such heterogeneous environments is--we're bound to introduce all sorts of uncontrolled variables in this scenario, and we've seen that the differences due to the actual gear used are, um, subtle. The other uncontrolled variables are liable to have a greater contribution.

Chris

[spacelabstudio]

So, the first test was probably not fair in that it used a stem for the drums. I've conducted another test with a different piece of material where for the OTB test I'm sending all of the tracks through individual channels in the summing box. I have also gotten rid of the idea of testing multiple make up gains. To see what signal sounds like through different preamps, just run signal through different preamps. In this test I'd rather focus on just the use of passive summing, controlling everything else to the extent possible.

There are four files in this test, randomly shuffled:

- ITB mix
- ITB mix run through a single stereo input on the summer
- OTB mix, separate tracks all run through the summer.
- One of the above, chosen randomly and copied. Kind of a spoiler.

The ITB mix and OTB mix utilized the exact same levels, pans and effects. To obtain the OTB mix I simply assigned individual tracks, post fader, post effects, to either a mono are stereo channel on a DAC running into the passive summer. Kick, snare and bass all got a single mono input on the summer and floor tom, rack tom, stereo overhead (MS), left guitar, and right guitar each got their own stereo input on the summer. The output of the mic pre used for make up gain (Sytek, non-Burr Brown channels) was brought back in via an ADC and recorded.

The only postprocessing on these files is I used r8brain to convert from 96khz/24bit to 44.1khz/16bit files, so that you had a hope of downloading them today. I established even levels by running a test tone through a mono input on the summer and adjusting the preamp gain to give me end to end unity gain on each channel. (Within the limits of Reaper's metering resolution--about a tenth of a db.)

Let me know if I can provide more information about how the samples were recorded.

What do you guys hear?

http://spacelabstudio.com/passive_summing2/

Thanks!
Chris

[Nick Sevilla]

So, the first test was probably not fair in that it used a stem for the drums. I've conducted another test with a different piece of material where for the OTB test I'm sending all of the tracks through individual channels in the summing box. I have also gotten rid of the idea of testing multiple make up gains. To see what signal sounds like through different preamps, just run signal through different preamps. In this test I'd rather focus on just the use of passive summing, controlling everything else to the extent possible.

There are four files in this test, randomly shuffled:

- ITB mix
- ITB mix run through a single stereo input on the summer
- OTB mix, separate tracks all run through the summer.
- One of the above, chosen randomly and copied. Kind of a spoiler.

The ITB mix and OTB mix utilized the exact same levels, pans and effects. To obtain the OTB mix I simply assigned individual tracks, post fader, post effects, to either a mono are stereo channel on a DAC running into the passive summer. Kick, snare and bass all got a single mono input on the summer and floor tom, rack tom, stereo overhead (MS), left guitar, and right guitar each got their own stereo input on the summer. The output of the mic pre used for make up gain (Sytek, non-Burr Brown channels) was brought back in via an ADC and recorded.

The only postprocessing on these files is I used r8brain to convert from 96khz/24bit to 44.1khz/16bit files, so that you had a hope of downloading them today. I established even levels by running a test tone through a mono input on the summer and adjusting the preamp gain to give me end to end unity gain on each channel. (Within the limits of Reaper's metering resolution--about a tenth of a db.)

Let me know if I can provide more information about how the samples were recorded.

What do you guys hear?

http://spacelabstudio.com/passive_summing2/

Thanks!
Chris

Hi,

Since you now state that it was not a "fair" test... I retract my earlier offer to run your mixes through my gear.

Maybe one day you'll come up with a valid test which has as little variables in it as possible, in which case I'd be interested in assisting you in the test.

Perhaps limit yourself to fewer questions? Usually a good test of any kind is only able to verify or debunk one parameter at a time, but no more, since this can and does create a situation where the mean deviance can be too large, rendering the test a failure.

Cheers

[spacelabstudio]

So, the first test was probably not fair in that it used a stem for the drums. I've conducted another test with a different piece of material where for the OTB test I'm sending all of the tracks through individual channels in the summing box. I have also gotten rid of the idea of testing multiple make up gains. To see what signal sounds like through different preamps, just run signal through different preamps. In this test I'd rather focus on just the use of passive summing, controlling everything else to the extent possible.

There are four files in this test, randomly shuffled:

- ITB mix
- ITB mix run through a single stereo input on the summer
- OTB mix, separate tracks all run through the summer.
- One of the above, chosen randomly and copied. Kind of a spoiler.

The ITB mix and OTB mix utilized the exact same levels, pans and effects. To obtain the OTB mix I simply assigned individual tracks, post fader, post effects, to either a mono are stereo channel on a DAC running into the passive summer. Kick, snare and bass all got a single mono input on the summer and floor tom, rack tom, stereo overhead (MS), left guitar, and right guitar each got their own stereo input on the summer. The output of the mic pre used for make up gain (Sytek, non-Burr Brown channels) was brought back in via an ADC and recorded.

The only postprocessing on these files is I used r8brain to convert from 96khz/24bit to 44.1khz/16bit files, so that you had a hope of downloading them today. I established even levels by running a test tone through a mono input on the summer and adjusting the preamp gain to give me end to end unity gain on each channel. (Within the limits of Reaper's metering resolution--about a tenth of a db.)

Let me know if I can provide more information about how the samples were recorded.

What do you guys hear?

http://spacelabstudio.com/passive_summing2/

Thanks!
Chris

Hi,

Since you now state that it was not a "fair" test... I retract my earlier offer to run your mixes through my gear.

Maybe one day you'll come up with a valid test which has as little variables in it as possible, in which case I'd be interested in assisting you in the test.

Perhaps limit yourself to fewer questions? Usually a good test of any kind is only able to verify or debunk one parameter at a time, but no more, since this can and does create a situation where the mean deviance can be too large, rendering the test a failure.

Cheers

Wow. Maybe I'm misreading your tone, but you sound pissed. You might have missed it but I did point out in the original post that the drums were a stem. It's also not entirely clear that you read past the first sentence of my last post.

Puzzled,
Chris