pedal steel and tube amps

E.Bennett · Post by **E.Bennett** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm

very surprised that the v4 didn't provide enough clean headroom!

??????? · Post by **???????** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:01 pm

Have you tried hooking up the Super to another speaker cabinet (2 ohm preferably, no more than 4 ohm)?

The CTS and Oxford speakers they used on those during that time period notoriously crap out when fed any kind of high volume or bass-heavy material.

Also, obtain a 5751 or even a 12AY7 tube to try in V1 (normal channel) or V2 ("vibrato" channel) depending on which channel you're using.

This is a lower-mu preamp tube which will alter the gain structure of the amp, possibly giving you what you want/need.

First order of business is determining where the distortion is coming from, and then addressing that. But that's a couple ideas, anyhow.

Also, there are some "tricks" to modify old Fender amps slightly to optimize them for steel. Things like beefing up the filter caps to ridiculous amounts of capacitance, switching to a solid-state rectifier (necessary with all that capacitance, but also makes the amp tolerate bass better), and using speaker(s) like JBLs that are very sensitive and don't distort readily.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:57 pm

no effects in the chain - just the ernie ball vol pedal and straight in.

i'll mess around with the amp but as far as i can tell - it's working fine as always - just not with the pedal steel.

i did a bunch of reading on the steel forums and this is what they say - you want high powered ss amps so there is absolutely no distortion whatsoever. so i wasn't surprised the my super is breaking up - it's not a mega power amp.

i notice they almost exclusively play with 15's (sometimes 12s) - so another strike against the 10s (less btm end?).

A.David.MacKinnon · Post by **A.David.MacKinnon** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:09 pm

What about trying a bass amp? I know it seems counter intuitive but lots of bass players are looking for the same thing steel players need - tons of clean headroom. Just a thought.

chovie d · Post by **chovie d** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:44 am

joninc wrote:no effects in the chain - just the ernie ball vol pedal and straight in.

i'll mess around with the amp but as far as i can tell - it's working fine as always - just not with the pedal steel.

i did a bunch of reading on the steel forums and this is what they say - you want high powered ss amps so there is absolutely no distortion whatsoever. so i wasn't surprised the my super is breaking up - it's not a mega power amp.

i notice they almost exclusively play with 15's (sometimes 12s) - so another strike against the 10s (less btm end?).

I post on the steel forum everyday. many there like SS amps, but also many of us prefer the harmonic distortion present in tube amps even for clean sounds...it adds 'warmth". Many of the greatest steel tones ever were recorded with tube amps. "Together Again" is a tweed bassman 4x10! Its easy to google up a misconception that we all play Peaveys but trust me that is NOT the case. 15 inch speakers are prefered for dynamic range , esp the lows, but tens and twelves work great too. Lloyd Green is a twin with two JBL 12's and his tone is regarded as one of the best there ever was. I know a guy who gigs a super reverb, I know another guy who gigs a silverface deluxe...Most of us play twins or showmans but other amps work well. Maybe you like Daniel Lanois? (alot of new players do)...thats a tweed deluxe!

A normally functioning psg pickup will not overload the input of a properly working super reverb or any other fender tube amp. Something is wrong with your amp or your pickup or something else in the chain. I'd remove the Volume pedal too to test. To me it really sounds like your super needs servicing but if you say its working fine.

A. David, bass amps DO work well. They tend to be SS tho and many of us prefer tubes. They also dont seem voiced correctly...cant put my finger on it but they are a little sterile. no sparkle, a little dull.

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:07 am

On older Fender amps the 2nd input is padded down 10 db.
Plugging into that input will help a lot with a pedal Steel.

I think you have several amps that could do the job.
The trick for me getting a good pedal steel sound is
my 1 15" Fender cabinet with the JBL K130.
That's the speaker Tom Brumley had me get.
It's the speaker cabinet used on the Robert Randoph "Live at the Wetlands" record. It's on the cover also.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:22 am

chovie d wrote: A normally functioning psg pickup will not overload the input of a properly working super reverb or any other fender tube amp. Something is wrong with your amp or your pickup or something else in the chain. I'd remove the Volume pedal too to test. To me it really sounds like your super needs servicing but if you say its working fine.

my v4 was just serviced and broke up the same as my super - it's not a nice overdrive sound - it's a crappy high ends kkksshhhh type breakup.

howdini · Post by **howdini** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:11 pm

Did you try troubleshooting your signal chain? If you're getting the same problem thru different amps, there's definitely something squirrelly in the chain; any of the amps you've mentioned should do the job you want nicely...

mrc · Post by **mrc** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:52 pm

30 years ago I had an MSA ps that I eventually traded for a rare LP. I played it through a Vibrolux Reverb, and it was clean up to about 7, something is wrong, either with the amp, vol pedal or perhaps the pickup, jack or wiring in the ps is crapping out. Steel pickups do tend to be larger and hotter, but not that much. Load it up and take it to a stor to 'test' some amps, and see if it does it with other amps...Maybe 'try' out a new vol pedal

I would think most of the amps you listed should sound fine in the studio.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:20 pm

revisiting this again as i am playing lots of ps these days - a few thoughts after doing some more reading...

1. is it possibly a impedance issue with my ernie ball jr vol pedal? it uses a 250 ohm pot and i read that you want 500 for a ps?

2. i am used to playing with a volume pedal a lot with guitar and lapsteel and i swell to full volume all the time - i think the ps is fine to about 75% on the vol pedal and then it's pushing the front end of the amp too much and crapping out.

do most pedalsteel players tend to not open the volume pedal wide open very much? ie: is this a technique issue?

EarlSlick · Post by **EarlSlick** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:26 pm

I have a Carter Starter as weil, and an Ernie Ball Jr. volume pedal. I experienced something similar when trying to use them both through my '65 Bandmaster and my '96 Vibro-king.

I avoided using these amps with the Carter because of this.

After hearing your story, I definitely think it's the volume pedal. A 250 ohm pot instead of a higher impedance could be the culprit.

I think I'll bust out the Carter and give it a try myself.

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:25 pm

joninc wrote:revisiting this again as i am playing lots of ps these days - a few thoughts after doing some more reading...

1. is it possibly a impedance issue with my ernie ball jr vol pedal? it uses a 250 ohm pot and i read that you want 500 for a ps?

2. i am used to playing with a volume pedal a lot with guitar and lapsteel and i swell to full volume all the time - i think the ps is fine to about 75% on the vol pedal and then it's pushing the front end of the amp too much and crapping out.

do most pedalsteel players tend to not open the volume pedal wide open very much? ie: is this a technique issue?

Did you try the second input trick on your Super Reverb?

Do you have big clean 15"speaker like the JBL?

ashcat_lt · Post by **ashcat_lt** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:44 am

If it's an active pedal the size of the pot shouldn't make any difference. In a passive pedal 250 ohms is way too small. 500 ohms wont be noticeably better, though. I think you've left off a "K" there somewhere.

The difference between 250K and 500K will be fairly subtle. You'll notice just a tad more sparkle from the bigger pot. It won't really change the overall volume output, or likely help your distortion issue.

Somebody above did say that you should only use the last bit at the top of the pedal for sustain. Don't open it all the way up when picking.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:27 pm

i did try input 2 - didn't really make much of a difference.

sorry - i meant to say 240k ohm pot in my ernie ball jr volume pedal...

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pedal steel and tube amps

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