Straining to get reamp>amp to match guitar>amp

oyrgawd · Post by **oyrgawd** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:13 am

I called Radial and they suspect the box needs fixing if it's not getting close to guitar level with a balanced +4 input. RA number on its way.

ashcat_lt · Post by **ashcat_lt** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:36 pm

Hooray for warranties and good customer service!

You'll let us know how it works out?

oyrgawd · Post by **oyrgawd** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:14 pm

I will. No warranty though coz it's been over 3 years. And I paid way too much to ship it to British Columbia. Hope the repair is cheap.

oyrgawd · Post by **oyrgawd** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:37 am

Arright it's back. They quickly and graciously worked on it then sent it back free of charge even though I bought it more than 3 years ago.

The slip says they "replaced components for higher output." The output is higher now.

I set up a test: guitar>Radial J48 DI>Sytek pre>FireFace High Gain out>X-Amp>amp input. Set input level where I would record (-14 peaks or so), with output as hot as I could go without clipping. The output level was *better* than before, but still much softer than guitar>amp.

I don't think anything is broken anymore, I just think this system isn't for me. I use a really hot humbucker to slam the input of my amp (mostly no effects), and that just doesn't translate through all this stuff.

The best result I got was plugging straight into the amp, then inserting the DI/pre/interface output/reamp in the amp's effects loop. That way at least I got the natural interaction between the guitar and amp-preamp. Even then, the level and tone was pretty soft vs. with the FX loop bypassed, but I could make up for it with the amp's master volume.

Anyway. Now I think the plan is either amps-in-the-room-with-the-drums or sell-gear-to-record-basics-at-a-real-studio. Watch the buy/sell/trade section if I haven't dissuaded you already.

antilog · Post by **antilog** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:21 am

losthighway wrote:
oyrgawd wrote:Thanks for the thoughtful replies all.

Let's see:

Volume's full-up on the X-Amp.

It's a balanced XLR-TRS connection (unless the cable's bad).

The Boss tuner was used on the way in to disk but on the way out it was reamp>amp only. The buffer's tonal effect isn't much of a biggie next to this overall level issue.

The DI is the one in the Digimax, so I guess that's active. Somewhere among the impedance ins and outs is probably the explanation for the level drop.

I'm getting the picture that 'good enough' is what it's gonna be with the reamp.

I'll try these suggestions but I'm thinking I'll ultimately be happier as a player and recordist with the mic'd amp in the room.
Don't you want an unbalanced 1/4" going back in to the amp?

Ja, sounds like they might only be getting 1/2 power signal

Recycled_Brains · Post by **Recycled_Brains** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:25 pm

My friend that owns the studio I work out of records all his direct signals, that are to be reamped later on, VERY hot (like almost peaking, but not quite).

When I asked him why, he explained that it is for the very reason you've stated. It always comes back to the amp at a lower output than just plugging the guitar straight in. He also uses the XAmp, so I reckon it's a common thing with those.

The way I see it, is that as long as you're not experiencing digital clipping on the DI signal, record it as hot as possible, THEN worry about recording at conservative levels when you re-track the mic'd amp.

FWIW, I've not experienced this problem with my passive ProRMP reamp.

Recycled_Brains · Post by **Recycled_Brains** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:31 pm

cgarges wrote:That's exactly what I was thinking. A balanced, +10, line-level signal is going to be hotter than a hi-impedence instrument-level signal. I'm usually attentuating pretty significantly at the ReAmp box (assuming that trim knob on the ReAmp box is an attentuator, since it's a passive device).

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Worth saying that this has been my experience with the ProRMP, generally. Different box than what the OP is using though.

1/2 the cost, so maybe give it a whirl, and if it sucks, return it. I like mine quite a bit.

numberthirty · Post by **numberthirty** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:38 am

Recycled_Brains wrote:My friend that owns the studio I work out of records all his direct signals, that are to be reamped later on, VERY hot (like almost peaking, but not quite).

When I asked him why, he explained that it is for the very reason you've stated. It always comes back to the amp at a lower output than just plugging the guitar straight in. He also uses the XAmp, so I reckon it's a common thing with those.

The way I see it, is that as long as you're not experiencing digital clipping on the DI signal, record it as hot as possible, THEN worry about recording at conservative levels when you re-track the mic'd amp.

FWIW, I've not experienced this problem with my passive ProRMP reamp.

I've had the exact same problem with this set up.

That said, I've ran through guitar effects into the guitar in on a Joe Meek VC6Q without problems.

jnTracks · Post by **jnTracks** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:46 am

i'm happy with my radial RMP but then again i don't know a ton about it. i've also re-amped bass with no box at all. right out of my digi002 into the ampeg svt-cl.

i saw designs for a reamp box that had some components that simulated the inductance of a magnetic pickup on the output jack. is it possible that this piece of the circuit is missing from some boxes? could that be the difference that's bothering you?

oyrgawd · Post by **oyrgawd** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:09 am

I'm betting it's just down to the active, dual-output design of the X-Amp. Just not enough juice per output to equal a Lace Dually humbucker. Probably fine for 'vintage output' pickup replication, or feeding pedals.

farview · Post by **farview** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:54 am

Some amplifiers are really sensitive to active electronics feeding them and they don't react well. Your amp might be one of those.

If simply turning up the gain on the amp to make up for the lost signal doesn't sound right, then that is probably the problem. I had a Splawn in here a while back that just wouldn't cooperate, my mid-80's Laney doesn't like it either. The Laney doesn't even like EMG's, it just loses gain and sounds really thin.

Recycled_Brains · Post by **Recycled_Brains** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:33 am

farview wrote:Some amplifiers are really sensitive to active electronics feeding them and they don't react well. Your amp might be one of those.

If simply turning up the gain on the amp to make up for the lost signal doesn't sound right, then that is probably the problem. I had a Splawn in here a while back that just wouldn't cooperate, my mid-80's Laney doesn't like it either. The Laney doesn't even like EMG's, it just loses gain and sounds really thin.

Excellent thought.

This is why I'll never use active pickups in my guitar, and HATE active bass electronics. I repeat...HATE.

ott0bot · Post by **ott0bot** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:12 am

You guys may be on to something.....I have usually reamp'd single coil vintage guitars....and I'm looking for a softer alt country, classic rock vibe most of the time so using the X-Amp has yielded great results. Don't use alot of modern guitars with sweet humbuckers that rip through you mind and stuff.

FWIW I usually have the reamp'd signal on an aux send and I have way more sigal than needed to drive the amp an a resonable volume. If I need more gain, you can insert a gain plug-in and push the level more. I think that is a much better idea that tracking super-hot and and have the a/d converters overload and reduce the quality of the incoming signal. But heck, if it sounds good, it is good.

Recycled_Brains · Post by **Recycled_Brains** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:22 am

ott0bot wrote:I think that is a much better idea that tracking super-hot and and have the a/d converters overload and reduce the quality of the incoming signal. But heck, if it sounds good, it is good.

Wellll... Not advocating hammering the front end of your AD into distortion... just get it as hot as possible, without peaking (but real close) is all.

If the signal is going to be reamped through a 5150 or rectifier or something of that ilk... it's probably not as much of a concern.

oyrgawd · Post by **oyrgawd** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:37 pm

OK, best results yet, really no complaints: guitar>amp>FX loop send>DI>mic pre>interface input>interface line-level out>FX loop return>power section and speaker. Switching the loop in and out, once I matched levels using the interface output, was nearly imperceptible (a little more noise). Then I took the DI Thru and put it through a Pocket Pod doing only cab sim, and that to the headphones.

So yeah, this way of DI guitar/reamping would work for me. But despite all that, we've decided we would be best off going to a real studio to track basics. We're really just looking for our live sound, vs. camping at our space and building tracks up. And I think nothing can sound as good (and therefore good-performance-inspiring) in the headphones as a real mic'd amp.

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.

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