Adjusting Pro Tools Sends

[aitikin]

I'm not that well versed in PT, but I was wondering if anyone knew a way to set the sends in Pro Tools to be pre-solo?

The situation is that we do a lot of long recordings that require mostly set and forget mixes with the occasional adjustment for soloists (jazz setting), but if we use Pro Tools (which is about all we have) we're locked into real time bounces, which often means up around an hour and a half. So what we've been doing is setting up a send on each channel that's post fader to an internal bus and recording that bus, which has worked out perfectly fine, except that whenever someone solos a channel on Pro Tools, it gets soloed in the sends as well.

Anyone know a functional (preferably permanently adjustable or simple) way to set it so PT doesn't solo the sends as well?

Thanks!

[Nick Sevilla]

I'm not that well versed in PT, but I was wondering if anyone knew a way to set the sends in Pro Tools to be pre-solo?

The situation is that we do a lot of long recordings that require mostly set and forget mixes with the occasional adjustment for soloists (jazz setting), but if we use Pro Tools (which is about all we have) we're locked into real time bounces, which often means up around an hour and a half. So what we've been doing is setting up a send on each channel that's post fader to an internal bus and recording that bus, which has worked out perfectly fine, except that whenever someone solos a channel on Pro Tools, it gets soloed in the sends as well.

Anyone know a functional (preferably permanently adjustable or simple) way to set it so PT doesn't solo the sends as well?

Thanks!

Hi,

There are only two modes for the sends :

PRE-Fader, in which the main fader does not affect the send level.

POST-Fader, in which the main fader does affect the send level.

As to how to make a channel solo-safe, simply press command-click on the solo button for that channel.

So, to try to understand your question better,

You are sending all your mix tracks via a SEND fader to the record (or mix) buss.

WHY?

The best way I have to mix down is to make the OUTPUTS on each channel go to a mix buss, not make a whole set of send faders. this is too much routing messiness on your part.

Now, as to how to make a BUSS solo safe, you need to solo safe EVERY channel that feeds your record buss, and also make that mixdown audio channel solo safe.

This way whenever you are soloing another monitoring path, the mixdown does not get affected.

As an example, I'll use two monitoring paths:

BUSS 1-2 will be the MIXDOWN BUSS. ANYTHING that goes to this buss is made solo-safe. Say you have this feeding an audio track where the final print will be made. This one ALSO is made solo safe, and brought up on it's own outputs, say, Analog 1-2

BUSS 3-4 is your monitoring BUSS. This one is for listening to soloed tracks. As such, the buss itself could feed an AUX channel, and have that channel be solo safe (so when you press solo, it does not get muted). This AUX channel will feed another set of outputs, say Analog 3-4. This way it can be brought up in a mixer for listening, and the mixdown buss can be left alone, or even muted.

Now for my question :

WHY would you be soloing tracks while you are printing a mix of any kind?

WHY can you not simply mix until you are satisfied with the mix, and then print it.

To me, the final mix print is done after everything has been sorted out with the editing, and automation, and etc...

Also, WHY would you ever NOT listen to your mixdown track? That is like shooting yourself in the foot.

Monitoring a mix on another buss that can be soloed and muted and etc, will end up creating trouble for you, since you will no longer be listening to the actual mixdown anymore. You will no longer know what you are printing as soon as you solo, and even worse, if you make an edit during the mixdown while soloed, well this is akin to driving a bus with your eyes closed, no?

Logical

[fossiltooth]

As to how to make a channel solo-safe, simply press command-click on the solo button for that channel.

That's right. Holding the command key while clicking a solo button will make a track and it sends "solo safe". However: if aitikin solo-safes every track, he essentially won't have a solo function at all! It defeats it's own purpose.

Easier solution: Don't hit solo while printing your mix! If you're not finished with the mix yet, finish it. Then print it.

[aitikin]

FIRST OFF,

I NOT printing final mixes here! There is such a thing as a straight to 2 track mix, and that's the point of this!

Second of all, this is a live concert (pretty much all we do here), the only reason I'm soloing a track is to check if something's wrong (like when one of our SM81s started sounding more like it was on a high powered fan than an upright bass, and I had to figure out which channel was sounding like a fan so we knew what to do when we had a couple minutes to swap it out during set change). We do this as a service to the conductors/directors/performers/what have you so they have some near instant feedback, instead of having to wait a couple of weeks to even hear whether they played together or not.

The whole point of doing this is the simple fact that we have too many concerts and not enough time (student workers, emphasis on the student part, I'm a business major and my replacement is a history major to give you an idea of what I mean there) to do bounces again and again. So what we do is a rough mix and then, in the case of Jazz concerts, if the conductor (or the engineer) decides that what was done rough wasn't good enough (happens about 75% of the time) than we go through and do a real mix and have a real bounce for each track and everything.

Doing this, however, is especially useful for orchestra, choir, concert band, etc where we put up a Decca Tree plus some outriggers and do a straight sum (on a send, prefader, allowing us to use the faders to check the mics to see if something's wrong).

[rant]So yes, while this is not an ideal scenario, neither is having student workers who get no credit other than minimum wage for their work, have other classes as well as projects and papers to write, and the department can't afford to have them working any more hours (leading us back to not enough time). If the state would find a way to balance it's outrageously pathetic budget, than they could hire me on and I could do all the audio in the building, and we wouldn't have to worry about this because someone would be able to mix it down the next day.

[angry portion]Don't assume that just because I'm talking about doing something like this I don't know what I'm doing. I realize that this is not an ideal scenario and I realize the problems it may cause. I also realize that the benefits most definitely outweigh the detriments. SO, if you would all just realize that sometimes things aren't exactly the way you do things doesn't mean that they're wrong, especially when the mixes are all ITB, no plugs, no other sends, and just for a reference, maybe we could have just gotten to the point without all that hullabaloo![/angry portion]

We have experimented time and time again with alternatives to this and really, we can't find any alternative other than giving them a copy of just the stereo pair (which is functional, but altogether not as appealing) that can get it out to them before they leave the building for the night. I came here cause I figured the community might have a little more curiosity and a little less aggression over something like this, I may as well have gone to the other place to ask this question.[/rant]

So long story short, this is a much more logical than you two have made it out to be given the constraints. We won't solo tracks on a non-live to 2-track mix.

[mwerden]

Here's a way to set this up:

You need a mix bus for printing the mix like you were doing, but I would personally route the actual audio track outputs to this bus instead of sends. Solo isolate all of these tracks so they always go to your internal mix bus.

Next add a send on each track and have those sends routed to consecutive busses (track 1 to bus 1, track 2 to bus 2, etc). Then set up aux tracks for each bus you're using. You can now solo the aux tracks to hear them without worrying about the mix you're printing.

[Nick Sevilla]

FIRST OFF,

I NOT printing final mixes here! There is such a thing as a straight to 2 track mix, and that's the point of this!

Second of all, this is a live concert (pretty much all we do here), the only reason I'm soloing a track is to check if something's wrong (like when one of our SM81s started sounding more like it was on a high powered fan than an upright bass, and I had to figure out which channel was sounding like a fan so we knew what to do when we had a couple minutes to swap it out during set change). We do this as a service to the conductors/directors/performers/what have you so they have some near instant feedback, instead of having to wait a couple of weeks to even hear whether they played together or not.

The whole point of doing this is the simple fact that we have too many concerts and not enough time (student workers, emphasis on the student part, I'm a business major and my replacement is a history major to give you an idea of what I mean there) to do bounces again and again. So what we do is a rough mix and then, in the case of Jazz concerts, if the conductor (or the engineer) decides that what was done rough wasn't good enough (happens about 75% of the time) than we go through and do a real mix and have a real bounce for each track and everything.

Doing this, however, is especially useful for orchestra, choir, concert band, etc where we put up a Decca Tree plus some outriggers and do a straight sum (on a send, prefader, allowing us to use the faders to check the mics to see if something's wrong).

[rant]So yes, while this is not an ideal scenario, neither is having student workers who get no credit other than minimum wage for their work, have other classes as well as projects and papers to write, and the department can't afford to have them working any more hours (leading us back to not enough time). If the state would find a way to balance it's outrageously pathetic budget, than they could hire me on and I could do all the audio in the building, and we wouldn't have to worry about this because someone would be able to mix it down the next day.

[angry portion]Don't assume that just because I'm talking about doing something like this I don't know what I'm doing. I realize that this is not an ideal scenario and I realize the problems it may cause. I also realize that the benefits most definitely outweigh the detriments. SO, if you would all just realize that sometimes things aren't exactly the way you do things doesn't mean that they're wrong, especially when the mixes are all ITB, no plugs, no other sends, and just for a reference, maybe we could have just gotten to the point without all that hullabaloo![/angry portion]

We have experimented time and time again with alternatives to this and really, we can't find any alternative other than giving them a copy of just the stereo pair (which is functional, but altogether not as appealing) that can get it out to them before they leave the building for the night. I came here cause I figured the community might have a little more curiosity and a little less aggression over something like this, I may as well have gone to the other place to ask this question.[/rant]

So long story short, this is a much more logical than you two have made it out to be given the constraints. We won't solo tracks on a non-live to 2-track mix.

Maybe if you had started with this detailed information, you might have gotten a totally different response.

I think I will give you a wide berth from now on... I'm sure other members can help you a lot too.

Logical.

[Nick Sevilla]

Now with this , ahem, NEW information,

I can only give you from my experience a little bit.

You may shit over it if you wish.

In all live recordings I have done over the years, I have always found it useful to keep the different functions being used as separate as possible.

1.- FOH. Gets all the microphone feeds from a splitter, and make the mix for the event.

2.- Stage Monitors. Also gets it's feeds from all mics from the mic splitter.

3.- Recording rig. May get the direct mic signals from a second splitter, if there are enough microphone preamplifiers included in the recording rig. Otherwise, and most commonly, gets Direct outputs from either the main FOH console, or the Monitor console, depending on where you want the recording rig set up.

Now, for this direct otuput to work for a post-event mix that is any good, it MUST be pre-fader, pre-insert and pre-eq, so that whatever the FOH engineer does to the signals does NOT go to tape.

Now, if you decide to flame me more telling me you already know this stuff and why am I stating the "obvious", then "Tra La La La"... to you sir, whatever.

Logical

[aitikin]

Maybe if you had started with this detailed information, you might have gotten a totally different response.

I generally thought people would ask before jumping to conclusions, but I can see why some wouldn't, especially given that I stated myself to be "not that well versed in PT". Sorry. In the future, I will try to remember to explain better, starting with responses to your post right here.

In all live recordings I have done over the years, I have always found it useful to keep the different functions being used as separate as possible.

1.- FOH. Gets all the microphone feeds from a splitter, and make the mix for the event.

Done, our setup consists of a couple of 8 Channel Radial Splitters on each recording rack (total of 32 channels) with direct outs going straight into some Millennia preamps, and the primary split running to FOH. It's wired this way as we often use the system just for recording and it's quicker.

2.- Stage Monitors. Also gets it's feeds from all mics from the mic splitter.

Frankly, we never have a separate mixer for monitors as there are hardly ever any monitors being used. If there are, it's one, maybe two, with either the exact same feed or a very similar feed, and if we have more than 2-3, we'll run a split desk using the direct outs to feed the other side (56 channel APB Spectra, awesome board and I'm going to miss it when I graduate) and that will become our monitor mixer.

3.- Recording rig. May get the direct mic signals from a second splitter, if there are enough microphone preamplifiers included in the recording rig. Otherwise, and most commonly, gets Direct outputs from either the main FOH console, or the Monitor console, depending on where you want the recording rig set up.

As pointed out above, taken care of. The recording rig is actually approximately 500 feet away from the concert, using Aviom digital snakes and Millennia preamp control having a rack that is in the venue backstage, eliminating all but the shortest of "long" cable runs.

Now, for this direct otuput to work for a post-event mix that is any good, it MUST be pre-fader, pre-insert and pre-eq, so that whatever the FOH engineer does to the signals does NOT go to tape.

Very true and very problematic if we were going that route, and occasionally we will do this to backup to an HD24 if it's a big enough concert that we need the extra mics on, but mainly our backup is straight off of the stereo pair (which only goes to FOH when we do multichannel backup).

So what ends up happening is the audio all feeds into the digital ins on a few Digi 192 i/os and shows up in PT. Kind of annoying that we have no analog signal path at all, and I almost wish they had done a copper pull of a few XLRs (aside from the intercom system, which rarely gets used, but needs to be there) so we could do a backup from the recording rig, but that's a little OT. The point is, we only have a giant, fancy mouse as a mixer.

Now, if you decide to flame me more telling me you already know this stuff and why am I stating the "obvious", then "Tra La La La"... to you sir, whatever.

I'm sorry for earlier, I was in a hurry, haven't been sleeping well lately (finals week), and am frankly not feeling well at all right now. Kind of a gnarly combination and I wasn't expecting such a response, which in turn got me riled up. I do understand that you were merely trying to keep me from making an idiotic mistake and appreciate that.

Sincere apologies all around.

[Nick Sevilla]

Apology accepted.

I think you have hit your issue in the head :

"The point is, we only have a giant, fancy mouse as a mixer. "

Maybe try to get a controller for the Pro Tools faders, being as you have your own feed that does not affect the performance.

This way you can be mixing it live as if you were the FOH guy, BUT really mixing for a CD instead.

A good tip I learnt doing live gigs is the following:

ROLL WITH IT.

If a mic craps out, oops... ROLL WITH IT.

If the Tuba player craps on the floor... ROLL WITH IT.

If the snacks are all gone from the backstage... ROLL WITH IT.

The lesson is to develop a tough skin, and to also develop a second sense for resolving technical issue BEFORE they happen.

But, since this is live... ROLL WITH IT. and don't forget to have fun.

Logical

[aitikin]

Apology accepted.

I think you have hit your issue in the head :

"The point is, we only have a giant, fancy mouse as a mixer. "

Maybe try to get a controller for the Pro Tools faders, being as you have your own feed that does not affect the performance.

The D-Command is a control surface, it just has no analog ins or outs, thus giant mouse.

This way you can be mixing it live as if you were the FOH guy, BUT really mixing for a CD instead.

A good tip I learnt doing live gigs is the following:

ROLL WITH IT.

If a mic craps out, oops... ROLL WITH IT.

If the Tuba player craps on the floor... ROLL WITH IT.

If the snacks are all gone from the backstage... ROLL WITH IT.

The lesson is to develop a tough skin, and to also develop a second sense for resolving technical issue BEFORE they happen.

But, since this is live... ROLL WITH IT.

That's the plan.

and don't forget to have fun.

Logical

...but aren't logic and emotions supposed to be separate from each other Mr. Vulcan?

Thanks!

[ott0bot]

and don't forget to have fun.

Logical

...but aren't logic and emotions supposed to be separate from each other Mr. Vulcan?

Thanks!

He's half human, forgive his display of emotion.