Yamaha PM1000 16 channel recap. PS Help

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The Scum
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Post by The Scum » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:10 pm

My plan (if we determine the PSU is a major shortcoming which I think it is) is to split the supply so the illumination & headphone amp are handled by the stock unit, while the audio amp rails are handled by something with some more available current. Otherwise it looks like a complete supply system is going to be a lot of $$. I figure if I get a couple of good quality supplies for the audio rails, I can then build them into a complete system once funds are there. I can't think of why this route is a bad idea. Can you?
If you can track down surplus Power One supplies, then they might not be as expensive as you're thinking. In which case, a complete cut over might not be so problematic.

I'm not sure of any +/-25V supplies off the shelf - you can use a pair of +24s, though. Tie one's + to the other's - outputs, and call that junction ground.
So after measuring the current draw in this scenario (we have a 24channel PM2K with 2 sets of 2A fuses for the rails as you said) how much do you think I should scale it up to have all the necessary current and then some? 10%? 50%?
You need to be careful of a few things with that approach:

-Those 2A fuses are on the wrong side of the supply to be a terribly accurate indicator of required current. They're between the transformer secondary and the regulator, so any measurement there includes regulator inefficiency (current wasted as heat, perhaps as bad as 50% or more). The PM1000 has extra fuses on the regulator outputs, between the supply and the distributed rail.

-Was the console working hard (lots of busses & auxes running hot signals, maybe a bunch of 600 ohm loads on the outputs) when you measured the current? If not, then the measurement might not be indicative of a max draw.

If it was working hard, then maybe scale up by 50%...if not, what sort of numbers were you seeing?

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Post by JdJ » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:29 am

The Scum wrote:
If you can track down surplus Power One supplies, then they might not be as expensive as you're thinking. In which case, a complete cut over might not be so problematic.
I'll check into that option. I was spec'ing on the Acopian site, which I realize is high end.
The Scum wrote:...if not, what sort of numbers were you seeing?
I still have to measure it - just haven't had a chance. So I should load the heck out of it then? Any "ideal" way to measure it other than at the fuse holder?

Thanks,

Josh

The Scum
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Post by The Scum » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Acopian is nice in that you don't need any other enclosure - they're prefab and enclosed enough that you can deploy them without any extra tweaking.

Power One need you to add your own power switch, mains connector, fuse, and case, etc.

I've never noticed a particular difference in quality between them.
I still have to measure it - just haven't had a chance. So I should load the heck out of it then? Any "ideal" way to measure it other than at the fuse holder?
Again, measuring at the fuse is measuring the regulator input, so you'd be measuring any additional load represented by the regulator. What you want to measure is the regulator output.

A low-range clamp-style Ammeter could do it, if you've got one handy...most clamps are made for huge currents (like measuring the consumption of a whole house, or cranking a car...), and might not turn over for an Amp or two. Otherwise, is the supply output on a connector?

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Post by JdJ » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:08 pm

The connector is a 19 pin jobbie. I don't have a clamp style ammeter - just a couple of multimeters. I suppose I could insert one of them in between one of the 25VDC rails at the PCB and the leads to the connector.

Once again - sorry to hijack!

Cheers,

Josh

CZ101
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Post by CZ101 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:08 pm

I have what is probably a stupid question about powering the PM-1000 (full board - 16 channels - soon to be completely recapped w/ some mods)...

I had the internal PSU recapped and I've experimented a little with extra films for bypassing, but I'm still curious about how a newer linear regulated supply might improve things, so,

recently I purchased a 48VDC 3A Power-One supply:

http://datasheet.octopart.com/HD48-3-A- ... t-3349.pdf

and my plan is to trim the voltage back and use it to power the 44VDC rails.

My question is, if I wanted to use another supply for the 48V phantom rails, let's say, even the same type of Power-One supply, would this be asking for ground loop/hum/buzz/cm noise trouble or would using two separate supplies like this be nothing to worry about?

What if I connected a third supply for the 13V VU lamps and 12V headphone amps' rails? Would this be alright?

Is there a better way to go about this? Thanks everyone, all the info and help is much appreciated.
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Post by JohnSuitcase » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:18 pm

I don't know about a whole board, but when I racked my PM1000's (4 channels in one case) I just used the 44v for the phantom supply. There might be some devices out there that won't work at 44v, I suppose, but as far as I know it's not a problem.

The lower voltages could be arrived at using a voltage divider circuit, i think, though I'm no expert...
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Post by CZ101 » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:24 am

JohnSuitcase wrote:I don't know about a whole board, but when I racked my PM1000's (4 channels in one case) I just used the 44v for the phantom supply. There might be some devices out there that won't work at 44v, I suppose, but as far as I know it's not a problem.

The lower voltages could be arrived at using a voltage divider circuit, i think, though I'm no expert...
Hmmm... So powering the phantom and the circuitry off of one DC source is doable.

My PM-1000's transistors are being upgraded to 60V Hitachis and all caps are being replaced, mostly with higher voltage and capacitance ratings.

For power, one option that I'm considering is to set the Power-One supply's voltage trim at - 5% to get 45.5 VDC, and use this to power both the channels and phantom. I figure 45.5 VDC is workable with the 50V ratings of many of the board's caps.

Would there be any drawbacks to doing this with a one output 3A Power-One supply for the whole board, running phantom at 45.5V?

I'm not worried about any incompatibility with condensers, but would the phantom's current draw, although minuscule, affect the supply's ability to keep up with the channel circuitry's current draw?
Last edited by CZ101 on Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Scum
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Post by The Scum » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:31 am

I don't see any particular problems with that concept...it's reasonably elegant.

One thing that might happen is that gain and signal levels might change a bit with higher rail voltages. Higher rail = more bias current in the transistors = more gain. The operating point may shift a little, too. Not that swapping transistors won't change all of this as well...

Out of curiosity, what transistors are you switching to?

Not that a +/- 10% variation is going to be all that critical...and if you're really picky, you can re-trim the output amps to account for it.

I'd look into a separate 12V supply for the bulbs/HP amps. A divider can get you the right Voltage, but getting the right current to light the bulbs becomes a hassle.

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Post by JohnSuitcase » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:35 am

The Scum wrote: I'd look into a separate 12V supply for the bulbs/HP amps. A divider can get you the right Voltage, but getting the right current to light the bulbs becomes a hassle.
Yeah, think that's the best solution, as well.
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Post by CZ101 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:34 am

The Hitachi transistors I went with are those recommended by Jim Williams:

2SC2545 NPN http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datashe ... Xwvrxu.pdf

and 2SA1083 PNP http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- ... A1083.html

They make a huge difference - when comparing an upgraded channel vs one with the stock transistors, you realize how hissy the old ones really are.

About the VU bulbs, removing the back plane behind the VU meters looks like it would be a PIA. Have any of you ever tried that?
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