The morals of using drum samples

[Brian]

Part two:
In 1981, there were probably 7000 or so releases across all genre's, today there are 91,000 plus releases/year. GLUT of substandard product illustrated by the number that only around 2% of that number will make a nickel of profit and only 20% of that 2% will actually make any money, around 7000 releases.
People in the old days didn't succeed in spite of the difficulty, their engineers were trained to make what they had work for success, that's why they succeeded, they knew what they were doing and knew it well, not like today, stuff changes very fast these days.
Drum replacement? I'd do it with no problem if there was no way to get a great drum sound, and I'd even use a Bob Clearmountain sample, not just because he's sampled one of my drums hoping to get that Beacon Theater sound, but, if there's just no other way, yeah, but, I don't need to do that, I CAN get a great sound that is more accurate for what was actually happening when recorded and to me that works. I conform to standards where necessary, but, always using replaced drums is not a standard worth my time.
Here is a circumstance where i'd replace a drum sound: If the mic I needed wasn't there to get the sound I needed and the EQ wasn't going to do it and the drummer couldn't get the drum to pul it off with what we had, then, i'd have to match it up with a sample.
For Dance music, who cares what you do, that stuff is 100% whatever you can dream up with whatever tool you have. Honesty has no part in it.
Breathe, live in the now a bit of the time.

[plurgid]

Nowadays overdubbing is (almost) unanimously accepted as part of the process of recording a song. Yeah, the same song that was written and has always been sung accompanied at the same time with the performer's instrument is now going to be separated out and recorded individually. I don't know about everyone else but that is still a mind fuck for me.

Les Paul was a horrible music rapist responsible for the destruction of authentic art, was he?

Get some perspective dude.
There are great artists that paint with brushes, and there are some that paint with fingers ... or sponges ... or computers for that mater.

What the hell does "fake" even mean anymore?
All art is just a caricature of reality anyhow. The artist takes some truth in the world, abstracts it, synthesizes it and reflects it back into the world and people will appreciate that or not.

Maybe they won't appreciate it as much if they perceive it as a "put on", or maybe they won't pick up on the "fake" aspect of it ... or maybe they will and they just don't care.

This argument is like ranting against pro wrestling for its lack of authenticity.
People know it's fake, and plenty like it anyhow. Take that to mean whatever you want, but don't believe for a single minute that there's anyone in the crowd over 8 years old that believes it's real.

So ... if a client wants you to auto-tune the Blind Boys of Alabama ... maybe it's your job to say "hey, people are gonna know, and they're not gonna like that because that's not what this group is about". But hell... it's their thing, and if they really want to engage in auto-tunery then either you'll do it, or someone else will. What's the big deal?
[/b]

[tdbajus]

The thing for me is that I worry where it will all end up- a vocalist doesn't need to be in tune, a drummer doesn't need to be able to play in time or well or with decent drums, a guitarist can use guitar rig for all the tones he needs- and more and more it's what some clients expect.

It has already ended up right there on the day the first session musician subbed for a band member that couldn't play. The only thing that has changed is the way things are fixed.

Also, from the other end of things, all these tricks theoretically give people who are not physically skilled the ability to express what is in their heads.

Friend of mine is one of my favorite musicians, and he can barely play any instruments at all.

[Brian]

The thing for me is that I worry where it will all end up- a vocalist doesn't need to be in tune, a drummer doesn't need to be able to play in time or well or with decent drums, a guitarist can use guitar rig for all the tones he needs- and more and more it's what some clients expect.

It has already ended up right there on the day the first session musician subbed for a band member that couldn't play. The only thing that has changed is the way things are fixed.

Also, from the other end of things, all these tricks theoretically give people who are not physically skilled the ability to express what is in their heads.

Friend of mine is one of my favorite musicians, and he can barely play any instruments at all.

I'm not saying I'm "the judge", but, maybe not everything everyone hear's in their head is even worth hearing, airing, or glutting up the market, maybe. Maybe someone who knows their shit on any particular subject is more worth listening to or more likely to say something that will nurture people and someone who doesn't know shit from shinola is doing nothing more than practicing law without a license or some such simile.
I don't ask a plumber to shine shoes, I don't ask the DP to adjust sound, I don't ask the sound guy to work camera, I don't ask catering to direct, I don't hire the shoeshine boy to be the MD for a tour or record, or my dog to do my taxes.

[Nick Sevilla]

"I am disinclined to acquiesce to your demands"

[Tim A]

I'm not saying I'm "the judge", but, maybe not everything everyone hear's in their head is even worth hearing, airing, or glutting up the market, maybe. Maybe someone who knows their shit on any particular subject is more worth listening to or more likely to say something that will nurture people and someone who doesn't know shit from shinola is doing nothing more than practicing law without a license or some such simile.
I don't ask a plumber to shine shoes, I don't ask the DP to adjust sound, I don't ask the sound guy to work camera, I don't ask catering to direct, I don't hire the shoeshine boy to be the MD for a tour or record, or my dog to do my taxes.

That is assuming you can get music wrong, just like taxes.
its an art form an totally subjective. What you think is rubbish might be someone elses favourite band. And while you may think you're more musically informed than people who listen to "rubbish", I would strongly beg to differ, as you cant seem to appreciate other forms of music.

Thing of it like this. Someone who really likes fine art probably looks upon some abstract art and thinks its rubbish, anyone can do it, its nothing at all.
But abstract art is still in gallerys. people still pay alot of money for it, they still like it. People who know and unstandstand art as a whole, not only like the technical skills of fine art, but also other aspects of abstract etc.

yours not going to win an argument on someones musical taste on technical ability

[Brian]

Nick, you cracked me up with that poignient statement which I will now abscond with.

I'm not saying I'm "the judge", but, maybe not everything everyone hear's in their head is even worth hearing, airing, or glutting up the market, maybe. Maybe someone who knows their shit on any particular subject is more worth listening to or more likely to say something that will nurture people and someone who doesn't know shit from shinola is doing nothing more than practicing law without a license or some such simile.
I don't ask a plumber to shine shoes, I don't ask the DP to adjust sound, I don't ask the sound guy to work camera, I don't ask catering to direct, I don't hire the shoeshine boy to be the MD for a tour or record, or my dog to do my taxes.

That is assuming you can get music wrong, just like taxes.
its an art form an totally subjective. What you think is rubbish might be someone elses favourite band. And while you may think you're more musically informed than people who listen to "rubbish", I would strongly beg to differ, as you cant seem to appreciate other forms of music.

Thing of it like this. Someone who really likes fine art probably looks upon some abstract art and thinks its rubbish, anyone can do it, its nothing at all.
But abstract art is still in gallerys. people still pay alot of money for it, they still like it. People who know and unstandstand art as a whole, not only like the technical skills of fine art, but also other aspects of abstract etc.

yours not going to win an argument on someones musical taste on technical ability

That is one big BS argument you're having with yourself there. The benchmark for knowing if you "got music wrong" is playing it in public and checking out how many stop or runaway in horror, or are willing to buy it at a normal market rate set by the market. If it's "artsy" but isn't "good enough" they won't buy it. If it's not art and just plain sucks, they run away in horror and call the cops.

Well, what you posit is not even close to what I was poorly attempting to say, point taken, however:
The sales figure say otherwise. I don't feed my kids with taste, their sandwiches are as tasteless as everyone elses.

My art ain't your art, somehow, you now think you are qualified to be the judge of that, weird, considering you don't know me or much about me.

You could do your taxes as an art form with no rules or standards, but, the IRS will own all your stuff PDQ if it doesn't conform to their "taste" which is a set of standards for how it's done and it requires prior knowledge before making marks on the page. Once done you could try to sell your uninformed "tax art" but, I bet nobody buys it.
Though I never stated I was more musically informed than a gnat, my resume says otherwise. And what is this "you can't seem to appreciate other forms of music" crap?
That's a HUGE assumption to make, and way off base.

I wasn't having an argument, nor was I speaking about taste.
You made up a lot of stuff in your mind so you could make someone else (in your mind) look "bad" to you.
That's weird.
In the business of music, maybe walking by a toilet and recording a fart sound would sell, but, I doubt it would feed my kids, nor would I buy it, nor would anyone I know or work with. Just because something doesn't conform or isn't tasteful by any standard does not mean it is some kind of art to be appreciated by all or be ridiculed by the likes of you.
Don't get personal on message boards, the flame wars ended years ago. There's no more medals to be handed out to flame warriors.

[honkyjonk]

I overdub all the time, but I try not to if I can avoid it. The only reason I brought that (seemingly arbitrary) time period up was to illustrate the directionality of less and less human emotional content in the music.

The argument that since you use reverb, or reamp something, then you shouldn't have an ethical problem with using someone else's bullshit radio ready sample and calling it yours (or the artist's) music is ridiculous all or nothing logic. There are varying degrees of dishonesty.

And I'm sure there could potentially be a very esoteric discussion concerning how much and in what ways you can include other people's art into your own and still be valid, but the idea that because someone uses reverb, then any artificiality should also be accepted as valid is very black and white.

Also, I must have really touched a nerve if you guys are dragging my wife into this. Heh.

Anyway, I believe that the separation of human emotional content from itself, whether by virtue of overdubbing, or the much worse practice of drum replacement is bad for music.

I do realize that there is a balancing act to get something people will actually listen to. But I don't think it's outrageous at all to consider whether or not replacing drums is immoral. The only reason I replied to this thread is because of all the 'let's not go there' sentiment. Why not? Autotune? Why do you people accept that shit? You're the ones who have the power to change it. Just say no.

[Brian]

It's an attack of the circular thinkers and false dichotomy crew that got booted off GS. They're here to ruin tapeop now. I think maybe they work for the companies that make those two softwares, autotune whatever. Once the sentiment of enough people posting goes against the use of their stuff maybe they show up on message boards to post drivel that makes people who don't like to use their stuff not want to be there anymore. I'd look into it and see if any damages could be calculated and sue. I'd bet it causes a loss in subscriptions.

[ott0bot]

Wait....I think I'm just getting this....

you guys don't like glee?

[Nick Sevilla]

It's an attack of the circular thinkers and false dichotomy crew that got booted off GS. They're here to ruin tapeop now. I think maybe they work for the companies that make those two softwares, autotune whatever. Once the sentiment of enough people posting goes against the use of their stuff maybe they show up on message boards to post drivel that makes people who don't like to use their stuff not want to be there anymore. I'd look into it and see if any damages could be calculated and sue. I'd bet it causes a loss in subscriptions.

Mayhap a smidge less of the old smoke salad, ey?

[Brian]

It's an attack of the circular thinkers and false dichotomy crew that got booted off GS. They're here to ruin tapeop now. I think maybe they work for the companies that make those two softwares, autotune whatever. Once the sentiment of enough people posting goes against the use of their stuff maybe they show up on message boards to post drivel that makes people who don't like to use their stuff not want to be there anymore. I'd look into it and see if any damages could be calculated and sue. I'd bet it causes a loss in subscriptions.

Mayhap a smidge less of the old smoke salad, ey?

I'm trying to picture this and I can't keep a straight face either.
I better lay off "the pipe", eh?
But wait just a second as I address what kind of person would do such a thing;
and then I'll let y'all get back to Taylor Swift and her award, I just want to say, Beyonc'e had one of the best albums of.................

[chris harris]

I was prepared to expose Brian's post for the bullshit it was... then, with the last couple of posts, he's exposed himself as comically delusional, and just plain bad at making an argument.

No fun anymore. People who think that they should define what art is or is not for other people, usually have dreadfully boring taste. And, it's just no fun to argue with people who do the "'I'm not saying blah, blah, blah... BUT...' and then they proceed to say or do EXACTLY blah, blah, blah" thing.

Sometimes it's better to just let people FAIL miserably, than to waste three days trying to further embarrass them on the internet.

So, you ol' coots keep fighting the good fight. Keep believing that our best years are behind us. Age disgracefully.

[jgimbel]

Can't post, busy recording.

[JGriffin]

It's an attack of the circular thinkers and false dichotomy crew that got booted off GS. They're here to ruin tapeop now. I think maybe they work for the companies that make those two softwares, autotune whatever. Once the sentiment of enough people posting goes against the use of their stuff maybe they show up on message boards to post drivel that makes people who don't like to use their stuff not want to be there anymore. I'd look into it and see if any damages could be calculated and sue. I'd bet it causes a loss in subscriptions.

Wow, that's one hell of a theory. Here's another one.

Maybe there are recordists here --who have been here for awhile now and aren't refugees from another messageboard-- who don't hold the same myopic, rigid, fundamentalist views as some other folks.

The argument that since you use reverb, or reamp something, then you shouldn't have an ethical problem with using someone else's bullshit radio ready sample and calling it yours (or the artist's) music is ridiculous all or nothing logic. There are varying degrees of dishonesty.

So, we're moral relativists now? Who is to be the arbiter of where the line is between acceptably dishonest and sinfully dishonest? Are you willing to allow people to determine that on their own?

Autotune? Why do you people accept that shit? You're the ones who have the power to change it. Just say no.

Oh. I guess not.

Here it is, one more time: Once you edit, overdub, punch in --hell, once you ask the band to do a second take, you're moving away from a pure representation of a live musical event.

This does not matter because recorded music is not live music. It is not designed or intended to be live music. It is an entirely different art form.

The End.

I'm so glad we've moved beyond the mac vs. PC debates of old, and are now able to discuss something that really matters.