The morals of using drum samples

[ott0bot]

unsuspecting Nickelback fan?

Genius!
There's a volume in that right there as to the OP's original query. Like it or not.

For sure....it was half joking, half serious.

I'd venture to say that most people don't care about the things we discuss on here or have any integrity concerning music at all. It's as simple as "it sounds cool to me" or "that sound has mad bass" or "I like to dance to that song." And many people who write music are of the same mindset. So for them, there is no moral abiguity when if comes to the use of studio "magic" to make them sound better than they really are. They may or may not realize they sound like garbage, but one thing is clear in their mind....they won't on this recording. Thats why they are paying for, right?

[Brian]

unsuspecting Nickelback fan?

Genius!
There's a volume in that right there as to the OP's original query. Like it or not.

For sure....it was half joking, half serious.

I'd venture to say that most people don't care about the things we discuss on here or have any integrity concerning music at all. It's as simple as "it sounds cool to me" or "that sound has mad bass" or "I like to dance to that song." And many people who write music are of the same mindset. So for them, there is no moral ambiguity when if comes to the use of studio "magic" to make them sound better than they really are. They may or may not realize they sound like garbage, but one thing is clear in their mind....they won't on this recording. Thats why they are paying for, right?

That's what they ar paying for if you are wiling to do that type of service for them.
MAYBE, the problem comes down the road when supporting a half baked narcissist causes many dilemmas down the road for many crews involved with supporting their half baked ideas and career based in ignorance and where that leads society at large. Yes, we do all have some responsibility in that, it ain't morals, it's responsibility, and many people enter into this business as an escape from their responsibilities thinking there are none here, but, there is no escape anywhere and anyone who thinks or lives like there is is doing no service whatsoever to anyone, regardless of what they are able to churn out. Just something to think about.

[farview]

I think 90% of this whole issue usually comes to light when some unsuspecting Nickelback fack finally attends one of their concerts and wonders why it doesn't sound the the song on the radio.

I'm having a moral delema about what I'm about ready to type:

I am not a fan of Nickleback. They are poster boys for a lot of what is and has always been wrong with the music industry. Formulaic songs, hype, pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc... But, as a band, they can actually pull off what they do in the studio.

It may not be high art, but they are out there doing it successfully and a lot of people seem to like it.

It's the old 'art vs. commerce' argument. If you are in it for the art, fine. If you are in it for the money, fine. Niether of which are bad things.

Personally, I'm not an artist. I'm an engineer. The way I see it, my job is to take an artist's idea and help them express it in a way that will communicate with the artist's intended audience. Anything I can do to get that accomplished is fair play.

I don't enjoy sampling/quantising/auto-tuning. My life would be so much easier if people walked in here with the perfect equipment for the job, exactly the right skill set to perform it flawlessly, the budget to allow for the extra takes when needed, and the timeline that gives us plenty of time to make sure that everyone is in 'the zone' when they are playing the parts. But that is almost never the case....so out come the tricks.

[Brian]

I don't enjoy sampling/quantising/auto-tuning.


My life would be so much easier if people walked in here with the perfect equipment for the job, exactly the right skill set to perform it flawlessly, the budget to allow for the extra takes when needed, and the timeline that gives us plenty of time to make sure that everyone is in 'the zone' when they are playing the parts. But that is almost never the case....so out come the tricks.

RE: statement #1:

Farview Recording - And check out Farview's Rock Drum samples for Drumagog exclusively at the Drumagog store!!!

OK, I'm not buying it. Don't sweat it, I have a similarly hypocritical statement in my signature for a guy who could give a rip one way or another.

I get both sides of this, one is a "I'm a soulless droid automaton, I do what I am programmed to do" mode (sorry, but, that's how it's coming off)
And the other is "I'll do whatever I want and If I don't think you're up to it, I'm not recording you" (which is also fine).
There is also room for "prove me wrong" and

PRE_PRODUCTION.

I'm sorry, but, if an artist doesn't have time for preproduction and rehearsal, they aren't artists, which is also fine.
I don't support non-artists, it's my prerogative. I own my stuff and nobody tells me what to do with it unless they have my permission, which is easily gained by asking for it. If an artist is skilled themselves at using all that stuff and makes a stellar product, that is a type of art. Like I said, it's all in your head.

[Seej]

As far as art, if a guy comes in and his drums aren't tuned and I tell him to tune them but he can't because he doesn't now how, that isn't art, that's ignorance, I don't promote that, HOWEVER, if a guy comes in with drums "I think " are untuned and I tell him to tune them and he says "nope, this is what they have to sound like to get the effect we're looking for, listen to this" and he plays me an example, that's art.
To use your painting analogy, abstract art isn't when some ignoramus comes in and flaps his arms in some paint and smears it on canvas and says voila, That ain't a Picasso or his method, he knew exactly what he was doing. Just an analogy.

That's what my asthetic towards recording is. If my drums are out of tune, I'll do my best to tune them to how I want them to sound, especially if I'm drumming.

Unfortunately, it's not always that way. When my last band recorded their album, I couldn't afford to get new drum heads. So we recorded with the old beaten heads, which still sounded good when we laid the basic tracks down.

Then towards the end of the project, I was told that my tracks were going to be sampled.

I wasn't asked. I was told.

I shrugged and said "Yeah, ok, if it'll sound better."

They didn't.

I still cringe on how they turned out when I listen to the finished product. Not one effect was put on the drums, Whereas the guitars, bass, and vocals had effects. None of my contributions had any effects, not even reverb, which would've been good on a couple songs.

In conclusion, the drummer's always the last to know.

[ott0bot]

I think 90% of this whole issue usually comes to light when some unsuspecting Nickelback fack finally attends one of their concerts and wonders why it doesn't sound the the song on the radio.

I'm having a moral delema about what I'm about ready to type:

I am not a fan of Nickleback. They are poster boys for a lot of what is and has always been wrong with the music industry. Formulaic songs, hype, pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc... But, as a band, they can actually pull off what they do in the studio.

It may not be high art, but they are out there doing it successfully and a lot of people seem to like it.

Ok...I have a habit of being earnest....and I have to admit to never seeing Nickelback live. So....maybe that was a bad example. But don't get me started at the amout of pre-recorded music being mixed into live shows, not to mention triggers and what not.

Let me make an example of a band I like....
I saw the Cure live a couple years back, and sadly they didn't tour with a keyboard player...but all the sounds were there. Not to mention all the pre-recorded back ups and fading in the leads when Robert was getting a little winded. I'm a life long Cure fan, and I had fun, but I was sitting right behind the board and it was a bit discerning. I had several non-engineer and non-musician friends that went to the show and didn't notice a thing.

Anyway....my point was, that most people don't care whether or not anyone can pull it off live or not. There may be a few complainers, but most people wont know or care. I mean...some people think that people actually sing like the actors on Glee. And sadly...some of those kids watching probably wonder why they don't sound like that....and don't realize they are being duped.

Sorry....this is way off the drum replacement issue the OP raised, but to me it's the same mindset that makes auto-tune and replacement so common. Most people don't care, they just want to it sound "good."

[Brian]

As far as art, if a guy comes in and his drums aren't tuned and I tell him to tune them but he can't because he doesn't now how, that isn't art, that's ignorance, I don't promote that, HOWEVER, if a guy comes in with drums "I think " are untuned and I tell him to tune them and he says "nope, this is what they have to sound like to get the effect we're looking for, listen to this" and he plays me an example, that's art.
To use your painting analogy, abstract art isn't when some ignoramus comes in and flaps his arms in some paint and smears it on canvas and says voila, That ain't a Picasso or his method, he knew exactly what he was doing. Just an analogy.

That's what my asthetic towards recording is. If my drums are out of tune, I'll do my best to tune them to how I want them to sound, especially if I'm drumming.

Unfortunately, it's not always that way. When my last band recorded their album, I couldn't afford to get new drum heads. So we recorded with the old beaten heads, which still sounded good when we laid the basic tracks down.

Then towards the end of the project, I was told that my tracks were going to be sampled.

I wasn't asked. I was told.

I shrugged and said "Yeah, ok, if it'll sound better."

They didn't.

I still cringe on how they turned out when I listen to the finished product. Not one effect was put on the drums, Whereas the guitars, bass, and vocals had effects. None of my contributions had any effects, not even reverb, which would've been good on a couple songs.

In conclusion, the drummer's always the last to know.

That isn't the first time I've heard that same very sad story.
What kind of ethic is shafting the drums when you're tweaking everything else that may or may not suck?
That's a situation that is too weird for me to ever be in. I like LOW or NO drama. let the music have the emotions, not the process.
WHO approved that crap and did you at least get to whack them good one time?
Of course, al that said, if they sounded good alone yet didn't match the music at all, well, then there's a case to be made.
But DRY?

[Seej]

I did play them on the first two days (other story in metronome blues), added percussion on the last day, and that was it. When the album was being mixed, I wasn't even consulted on my opinions for the mixes.

[Brian]

I did play them on the first two days (other story in metronome blues), added percussion on the last day, and that was it. When the album was being mixed, I wasn't even consulted on my opinions for the mixes.

The drummer wouldn't normally be consulted on the mixes, neither would the guitars or any other band members if the band expects a quality mix instead of a "could you turn ME up" mix, which, no matter how much band members argue that they won't do that, they do it anyway, sorry, but, it's true a LOT.
Showing up with old heads won't earn you any cred towards being counted on to make quality choices either, just saying. If they even went ahead and recorded with he old heads it sounds like a desperate choice/suicide mission recording anyway.
I understand "shit happens" but, sometimes you just have to "make shit happen".

[teleharmonium]

Anyway....my point was, that most people don't care whether or not anyone can pull it off live or not. There may be a few complainers, but most people wont know or care. I mean...some people think that people actually sing like the actors on Glee. And sadly...some of those kids watching probably wonder why they don't sound like that....and don't realize they are being duped.

Sorry....this is way off the drum replacement issue the OP raised, but to me it's the same mindset that makes auto-tune and replacement so common. Most people don't care, they just want to it sound "good."

I think we probably can all agree that most people today don't care about these things, while there are some people who do.

But I think you are likely to find a greater rate of people who care about it in the music business as players or recordists, as well as among what you might call superfans, compared to the music audience or human race in general.

My rhetorical question is, if this describes you, do you have a responsibility to live by those values ? Either in terms of simply doing what you think is best with your own time, or out of a sense of preservation of some kind ?

Naturally, our choices to do music for a living or something else, and the kind of project we take on, are all germane to the question.

We're talking about living according to the way things are, vs. living according to the way we think they should be. Either approach can be caricatured into an absurd extreme; without the idealism, nothing could ever get better, and we're essentially short sighted because we're relating to the present status quo which hasn't actually been around very long and may not stay that long; and without pragmatism, we're all Don Quixote. Both viewpoints have their merits and maybe they can both be used with some combination of pragmatism and personal motivation.

[ott0bot]

^^good dose of wisdom^^

I didn't mean to come off sounding "all those sheep, just buy it...man." I'm not full of synacism, I'm more of a realist. I think having ethical guidlines is important, and so is treating others who think differently with respect. I'm thinking in the same lines as most on this thread, try to avoid it and use the real thing, but if push comes to shove, give it a shot. If it still doesn't work...go for plan C....get a robot.

rhetorically....I think we should live up to the values of honesty in music from a performance standard. Plus I think you should work to capture what is there are find creative ways to enhance the sould without completely altering the performance, and replacing all the human elements in a recording.

practically....depends if they are paying, and how long the project will take

[MoreSpaceEcho]

.
Showing up with old heads won't earn you any cred towards being counted on to make quality choices either, just saying.

haha. the last drummer i recorded, he shows up raving about his old slingerland set, particularly the toms....i think he said something like "they sound really warm and punchy". and they might well have sounded like that....with remotely new heads...which, of course, they didn't have. we spent a long time tuning them to produce something resembling a note.

the snare was even better....evans genera dry (a pretty lifeless head in the best of circumstances) so old that it's down to the plastic in the middle and black as night otherwise. he's hitting it and saying "huh....it sounded a lot better in our practice space." i gently encouraged the possibility of a new head, which he did buy the next day.

funny thing is the REALLY good drummers can show up with drums/heads that look like total crap and yet they sound just fine....

[JGriffin]

Nice lookin' site there, Scott! I hadn't seen that before.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

thanks! my singer made it for me. she's at www.kjparish.com

[Brian]

some unsuspecting Nickelback fan

I am not a fan of Nickleback. a lot of people seem to like it.

Anyway....my point was, that most people don't care whether or not anyone can pull it off live or not. .some of those kids watching probably wonder why they don't sound like GLEE....and don't realize they are being duped.

Most people don't care, they just want to it sound "good."

Sales figure say different.

My rhetorical question is, if this describes you, do you have a responsibility to live by those values ? Either in terms of simply doing what you think is best with your own time, or out of a sense of preservation of some kind ?

We're talking about living according to the way things are, vs. living according to the way we think they should be.
without the idealism, nothing could ever get better,
we're relating to the present status quo which hasn't actually been around very long and may not stay that long; and without pragmatism, we're all Don Quixote. Both viewpoints have their merits and maybe they can both be used with some combination of pragmatism and personal motivation.

Pretty much.

.
Showing up with old heads won't earn you any cred towards being counted on to make quality choices either, just saying.

funny thing is the REALLY good drummers can show up with drums/heads that look like total crap and yet they sound just fine....

I haven't experienced that, they all show up with at least decent heads, maybe not brand spankin new, but, at least not beaten out. Beaten out of round, Oh, now I have a picture of a square drum in my head.

That is a nice site!