Summing, ITB, OTB, stems etc...

captaincarpet · Post by **captaincarpet** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:47 am

Hello

I am trying a bit of analog mixing, using a Soundcraft spirit E12 and a Focusrite Saffire LE. I am sure this level of mixer doesn't make it "worth" it in terms of "better summing", but I like the feel of it, doing manual fades, etc. And the eq just sounds better than even my more fancy plugins to my ears, or perhaps I'm being fooled by the nice feeling of it...

Anyway, now I'm going six channels out of the Saffire, which is maximum, and back to the box. After that I do six more channels, so I have two mixes to sum in the computer. Would it be better to make stems of several sounds first so I would do only one analog mixdown and no further summing in the computer? I guess my question is if is the summing of individual sounds or overall "final" summing that some people tend to think sounds better in the analog world. (I am aware that it's not a Neve console I am using, but I am just more or less experimenting. I plan to buy something better for this purpose in the future...)

cheers

Nick Sevilla · Post by **Nick Sevilla** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:59 am

Hi,

I usually do the mix in one "pass", and do not try to mix stems, is at all possible, try to submix elements inside your DAW, and then go out those 6 outputs to the console for a one pass mix.

Cheers

rocksure · Post by **rocksure** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:16 am

Six channels of summing is not very many. Using a budget mixer as well, I would question if it is worth it alone. If you have some really nice hardware to add in the signal path of the stems on the way out ( compressors o EQ's) it might make sense still with six channels. I am fan of OTB summing. I sum with eight channels and hardware compressors and definitely like the way that sounds. In the end if it sounds better to you summed OTB then just do it anyway as you are and maybe try and get a bigger mixer or summing box when you can.

Gebo · Post by **Gebo** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:38 am

While I agree that six channels isn't a lot, I don't think you shouldnt try it. Even with a crummy mixer (I don't know much about the one you have) your recording will at least sound different. Try it with a few things and make a mental note of the differences and you'll have it in your bag of tricks.

I use the mixer on a tascam 388 for summing from time to time because it works well for certain things. I usually run 8 channels into it, but Ive done 6 in the past. I think I did mono bass and mono vocals, stereo drums and stereo guitars. And backup vocals or vocals that needed panning went to the drum or guitar channels.

lefthanddoes · Post by **lefthanddoes** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:59 am

I find that when you are making your stems, spread out instruments with similar frequency range, rather than group them together. I've done six channels with a crummy mixer and it can improve the sound. Basically three stereo mixes, I had one with vocals, kick and snare; one with drum overheads, backing vocals, one guitar, and bass; and one with percussion, keyboards, the other guitar, and toms. That way the analog summing is being used to blend things that are more likely to clash. I don't really know the science of it, but it definitely sounded better than grouping all the guitars or whatever.

joninc · Post by **joninc** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:40 am

spirit studio is a nice little board. i had one for a long time.

i would try doing a quick a/b of ITB and your OTB stems and see what you hear.

to me - the OTB adds extra reality/depth to the picture that i like. not always a huge difference but there is some.

once you start gettting into outboard comps/eqs/effects then it gets more noticeable to my ears.

T-rex · Post by **T-rex** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:13 pm

Its really whatever works best for you. I would find it hard to sub mix six stems first and then a second set of six stems, but in the days of limited tracks they would sub mix down and commit to it all the time to open up more tracks so if that works awesome.

I would echo your comments, even my really awesome software plug in eqs never sound as good to me as my ghost. That could be real or imagined but I really enjoy mixing on a console. I am doing a project ITB now for a band that wants to work that way and I had forgotten how much longer it takes (for me) to mix that way.

DangerousMusic · Post by **DangerousMusic** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:35 pm

It is worth trying OTB, even if it is just 6 channels. You don't know til you try. When choosing what tracks to put where, it is always best to separate things that are transient heavy. Vocals, bass, kick, snare, etc. Those are the things that stress your converters the hardest, giving you the most grief when mixing ITB.

It is really important to note though, that when comparing ITB mixes to OTB mixes, you have to make two completely separate mixes because the two different environments cause you to make different decisions. This is a common misstep people make when trying to decide whether OTB or ITB is better.

Chris_Avakian · Post by **Chris_Avakian** » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:33 am

i would probably do the bulk of the mixing itb, and then pump it all out, giving key tracks an individual channel on the board. lead vox, lead guitar, etc. something to give you a feel for riding the faders, and give you an idea of weather or not its something you could really get in to. good luck!

rocksure · Post by **rocksure** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:49 pm

There's so much debte around on forums as to whether or not summing a small number of channels ( or even a large number) OTB is worth it, with people polarised into different camps. I guess in the end the best thing is try it and see if you like the results or not. A/B an OTB summed song with a totally ITB one and then decide for yourself.
For me the day I added the summing mixer I built (which uses a pair of old Ward Beck summing amps for makeup gain) was the day I went "wow I like this", It gave my mixes a more spacious feel and clarity, and with the addition of a Pro VLA compressor following the summing, just lightly touching the stereo return ( 1db or so) going back to the computer added a smootheness as well. I have never looked back.

dylandotwall · Post by **dylandotwall** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:34 pm

I was until recently doing most of my mixing through an old 24 track Midas board. It sounded great!

In January I moved into a smaller space and rethink my setup. Without enough room for the full board, I pulled 6 input channels and a pair of output channels, built a rudimentary frame for them and wired them together thinking, "submix ITB and sum the stems through the board." After some AB testing, I found the difference to be so subtle it wasn't worth the effort

Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with it all.

I'd say just give it a spin and see what you think; it's probably going to depend a lot on your DAW. I don't want to discourage you, but I wouldn't expect any magic from analog summing of a few stems. That's just my experience.

My philosophy is that if it's a lot of time/work, the result had better be worth the effort, definitely if you're billing for your time.

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Summing, ITB, OTB, stems etc...

Summing, ITB, OTB, stems etc...

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