preserving drums at mastering

[green dc]

Hi all-
does anyone have any mix recommendations to help preserve lively, present drums when they go to mastering? I've just had a lot of results lately where the mastering results are so drastically different than my mix in the drum department, it almost feels like a remix. This is mainly on modern, loud rock sounding stuff, with parallel compression already on my drum bus. Conventionally, I push my drums up slightly in the mix to compensate for mastering, in general, and I've had great experiences with certain MEs but, all too often, they just get killed.
Any tried and true techniques for this?

[kslight]

I've had similar experiences... Well before sending it off you should do a test master yourself to get an idea of what will happen and compensate first. Slow attacks and parallel drum compression are usually what I go for, but when I master I also try to keep drums sounding good... Maybe communicate your expectations with the ME would be helpful beforehand.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

if the band wants a super loud master you are kind of screwed. there's really no way to get those sort of levels without the drums taking a beating. a good ME can get the levels really loud and still retain the impression of drum punch, BUT, as the guy who mixed it, you're still going to hear the difference and you're likely not going to be very happy.

so the best thing is just to try and convince the bands to go for a slightly quieter record. if that won't work, mixing with the kick and snare a little bit loud is probably a good idea.

in general, mixes that are clean and well balanced take the loudenizing abuse a lot better than mixes that are already distorted and/or have balance issues.

[green dc]

if the band wants a super loud master you are kind of screwed.

I have noticed this in general, across the board!
I usually don't compress my stereo mix at all, or really do anything to it, but I was reading the article with Kurt Ballou in a recent issue of Tape Op talking about how he resorts to pushing his mix as much as he can in order to maintain control over what happens at mastering. Is their any inherent etiquette associated with this?

[joninc]

find a new ME who will give you what you want!

[green dc]

find a new ME who will give you what you want!

I definitely have several excellent go-to guys. Unfortunately I don't always choose the engineer.

[joninc]

why not?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

because if the band's paying, it's their choice.

as far as this:

I was reading the article with Kurt Ballou in a recent issue of Tape Op talking about how he resorts to pushing his mix as much as he can in order to maintain control over what happens at mastering. Is their any inherent etiquette associated with this?

if you know what you're doing with buss compression, then sure, go nuts. i get some stuff from experienced mixers that's already louder than i'd probably make it, but it sounds good, so no problem.

if you don't know what you're doing with buss compression, then leave it off and just make the best mix you can. don't worry about the level, just make it sound really good. it's not like there's any rule saying you HAVE to have a compressor on the buss or anything.

the one thing ME's don't like is when we get something that's already clipped/limited. because that stuff tends to fall apart if we try to do anything to it.

[joninc]

this is crazy to me (warning - i am a little cranky)

i would never let a project that i produced go to a mastering engineer that i wasn't satisfied with.

i usually present a few options for the band/artist for varying budgets and then they can select the one that makes the most sense.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

hey i agree. i am all for friendly, collaborative relationships with mixers. but sadly that's just not always how it works, and in the end it's the band's record, not yours or mine.

[cgarges]

find a new ME who will give you what you want!

Agreed.

i am all for friendly, collaborative relationships with mixers. but sadly that's just not always how it works, and in the end it's the band's record, not yours or mine.

Sadly, also agreed. Have griped about that on here MANY times before.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Nick Sevilla]

Hi all-
does anyone have any mix recommendations to help preserve lively, present drums when they go to mastering? I've just had a lot of results lately where the mastering results are so drastically different than my mix in the drum department, it almost feels like a remix. This is mainly on modern, loud rock sounding stuff, with parallel compression already on my drum bus. Conventionally, I push my drums up slightly in the mix to compensate for mastering, in general, and I've had great experiences with certain MEs but, all too often, they just get killed.
Any tried and true techniques for this?

Hi green dc,

All I can tell you is that you should mix the way you want to, until the band or artist is elated with your mix. By this time you will have TRUST between you and the artists or band.
IF your artist or band TRUSTS YOU, then you can suggest a mastering engineer for the project.
IF your artist or band TRUSTS YOU, then you can have a listening party for the masters with the band, and decide WITH THE artist or band if the mastering job was done the way everyone wanted.

If you do not have trust between you and your artist or band, then you get to STFU and watch an unknown "ME" destroy the work you did.
And then move on.

Cheers

[@?,*???&?]

Hi all-
does anyone have any mix recommendations to help preserve lively, present drums when they go to mastering? I've just had a lot of results lately where the mastering results are so drastically different than my mix in the drum department, it almost feels like a remix. This is mainly on modern, loud rock sounding stuff, with parallel compression already on my drum bus. Conventionally, I push my drums up slightly in the mix to compensate for mastering, in general, and I've had great experiences with certain MEs but, all too often, they just get killed.
Any tried and true techniques for this?

This sounds suspiciously like you're not using much buss compression on your mixes. Things will change a lot at mastering if you aren't as the mastering engineer fights a 'loose buss' situation that has weird peaks and awkward dynamics.

The more finished you can make your mix sound BEFORE mastering, the better. If you think your mixes sound very complete before mastering, consider trying to make sure their peak pressure on them is like your favorite mixes from other bands have BEFORE you send your stuff to mastering.

[Theo_Karon]

This sounds suspiciously like you're not using much buss compression on your mixes. Things will change a lot at mastering if you aren't as the mastering engineer fights a 'loose buss' situation that has weird peaks and awkward dynamics.

Any mix will have weird peaks and awkward dynamics if not buss compressed? That's absurd. The mix will only have weird peaks and awkward dynamics if it has weird peaks and awkward dynamics.

[cgarges]

Things will change a lot at mastering if you aren't as the mastering engineer fights a 'loose buss' situation that has weird peaks and awkward dynamics.

This is only true if the mastering engineer doesn't know how to deal with that kind of thing or is trying to make an incredibly loud record out of something that is intended to maintain the dynamics in the mix. Steve Rooke at Abbey Road, for example, has no problem dealing with this kind of scenario.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC