mixing board for hybrid setup-...for tracking and mixing etc

[Krackle]

Getting lost in the product research swirl..

I have a modest recording setup right now and recently added a rebuilt & capped Ampex 440 c 2 track machine to this..beasty. I've been mixing in the computer and tracking >instrument/mic>preamp>firewire interface with no real outs except for monitoring (2)

Right now, searching for a board-16 or so channels but not opposed to 24 if the right deal come along. i dont really want to get into an extensive rebuild on an older board..so, looking at used midas venice, toft, allen and heath, soundcraft deltas etc. The usual stuff people are zoned in on for this used price level. The Toft is out of the running at this point

Now confused...right now im focused on 2 boards..a used Midas Venice 240 and Soundcraft Delta with DLX strips, 16 channels. also considering an Allen and Heath Zed 16 but it seems like it's limited as far as being useful in a tape context? Anyone on the Zed 16 w/tape machine bent?

Been reading quite a bit on the Midas and until last night thought it was the one..then found some posts where a guy tested it going to tape and said it sounded like crap in this context.. He said it was shar, harsh etc, painful even.

Wondering if anyone is using the Midas as a front end for a tape machine? using it's preamps etc..any decent samples of that sound around?

Wondering also if anyone here is using Soundcraft Delta as a front end for a tape machine?

Generally open to anything that's reachable in my budget..couple of thousand roughly..I have more money but Im on a parallel path to upgrade my conversion..

Would love some input on that as well..conversion that tapers are happy with that doesn't completely trash the tape vibe..Im doing mixdowns to the Ampex and also running instruments/voices through it and going to the computer off of the record head and im using an OLD Allen and Heath System 8 16/8 first generation that needs WORK..the usual i spose.

Sorry for the long post..

pete

[kingtoad]

The Midas has pretty decent EQ for a console of this price but a major minus point is the lack of polarity switches on any of the channels. You really don't want to be fiddling around with cables and connectors to check the phase of things every time you use more than one mic on a source.

[Nick Sevilla]

I'd get the Allen & Heath that was on here a few days ago...
GL2400-32.

It's 32 channels, which, if you have a 16 track setup, is "the ideal IDEAL cut console"

You can use one of the sides as inputs to tape, leave them OUT of the mix buss, and the return all the channels from tape to the other 16 channels. Plus if you need to mix a few mic sources down to one or two channels, you can route the mics into one of the 4 busses and out to tape easily enough.

As far as the sound... it's great. And it has individual phantom / polarity / filters on each channel. And Direct outputs, pre/post fader outputs, etc.....

But, mostly the sound is really good, and within your budget.

Cheers

[Krackle]

Kingtoad, im aware of this as one of the Midas negatives, thanks and wondering how folks who are using it to record, are dealing with phase in many mic setups.

Nick, considering the gl2400's but they seem to come up way often in the used lists. Then there's the guy who comes onto discussions and trashes the pres for 50 posts on any mixing board im considering and spears me during my progress towards buying a particular board. i see it happen more on the 2400's..cause there's more uv them, i guess.

Katrina??

Ramsas are old. I was considering one of those but i bagged it.

I haven't listened to a GL2400 so i will. Mainly concerned with the interaction of the board with the tape..do some boards sound like crap with tape, particularly? An edgier sounding board like the Midas should get rounded a bit going to tape. Some guy described it as sounding unbearable, icepicky. etf is that?

Soundcraft Delta. I've heard a DLX version but it didn't kick my diverters in, just sort of neutral, the eq felt the same sort of way. Not necessarily bad though, quiet and accurate tonally.

The Toft ATB, I think i'm spooked on them just from reading the quite a bit of complaining about them. But they're pricier than the used Midas Venice so, out of my budget.

What huge tracts of land. There's a Yamaha board from the 90's that people seem to like, the Yamaha RM 800, an 8 buss i think. I keep seeing guys that are tripping on those things, hard to find one to listen to one so have not done that.

Post some mixes from these puppies and i'll eat some chips and listen.




pete (chips)

[KoffeeKommando]

So where have you seen info on the Yamaha RM series?
I've got an RM 2408. Nobody here at Tape Op had a clue (well I did find one owner actually)


Yamaha RM2408 Recording Mixer by Reality Based Engineering, on Flickr

I haven't had a chance to really use it. Had to move right after I got it. Will be firing it up later this year.

It's designed specifically for use with tape machines.
It has tons of RCA unbalanced tape in and tape out.
Eq's are super good.
It's rackmount power supply is fanless and runs dead cool.
The one I have is basically silent. There is a slight mechanical hum from something under the patchbay area but it does not affect the actual audio.

I traded a Mackie 32.8 for it. Even playing MP3 files through it, it KILLED the Mackie. Like 3D vs. 2D. no contest.

It's weirder than most boards out there. Mostly unbalanced except for the 8 bus outs and the mains.

Fantastic soldering quality inside. Made in Japan back when people cared about what they were doing. They were expensive boards, $10,000 back in 1988.

Now, I want to hear more info about it...gimme some links!

[kingtoad]

I'd look into a Soundtracs Topaz as well - I have one and it works brilliantly for my needs.

[Nick Sevilla]

[SNIP]
I haven't listened to a GL2400 so i will. Mainly concerned with the interaction of the board with the tape..do some boards sound like crap with tape, particularly? An edgier sounding board like the Midas should get rounded a bit going to tape. Some guy described it as sounding unbearable, icepicky. etf is that?
[SNIP]
(chips)

Hi,

All boards will sound like crap with tape, if you do not know what you are doing. Otherwise, they all sound just fine. This is one of those cases where the driver really has to know how to drive the bus.

You want some examples? Ok.

http://nicksevilla.com/nicksevilla.com/Examples.html

Everything except for the Yes song, was done on my GL2800-32 board. Some outboard gear like Urei LA2A and others, and some ITB plug ins were used on al of these, in addition to the mixing busses of the GL.

Cheers

[Krackle]

hey man..that stuff sounds great, awesome.

are you using a small room model reverb or am i hearing your room in those?..cool vibe..sort of dry with space. listening on earbuds on my laptop (not in my studio) so i know im not getting everything as planned.

Thanks for linking it and i have a lot of questions..can you describe your process using sideways v's (>>)

Interested in how often the board is coming into play from tracking to mixdown..

Are you doing a lot of tracking with the GL using the onboard pres and eq? If so im impressed...guitar mics? vox?

i understand the skill level bus driver thing..i get decent sounds..decent enough to get me smiling..im glad you answered the question about -boards maybe sounding like crap with tape- It was something i needed to ask.

my old System 8 sounds ok but needs a big bag of capacitors..i still get it sounding ok and then dont touch a thing...cant really actively mix because the caps are poppy and many of the pots are beyond a cleaning.

anyhow..thanks for posting that stuff, totally cool...more thoughts, appreciated.

Aren't Soundtracs boards simliar to Allen and Heaths?..or is that Soundcraft? I thought there was some relationship..designers leaving in a huff and starting a new outfit?

Hoping some other folks will link or post some samples of the Midas Venice, Soundcraft Delta, Soundtrac, one of those Yamahas, anything cool..link it.

pete

[Krackle]

Koffee..that board looks cool. Im going to read about it. The one i was talking about ,
RM800 i believe. different board in the same letter line..Yours looks beefier..the 800 is more modest im sure.

..do some creative googling and search the various boards, this forum too..info out there. People like that board..then, of course, there's someone who comes along and hates the particular mixing desk in an alarming and disfunctional way.


pete

[Nick Sevilla]

hey man..that stuff sounds great, awesome.

Thanks.

are you using a small room model reverb or am i hearing your room in those?..cool vibe..sort of dry with space. listening on earbuds on my laptop (not in my studio) so i know im not getting everything as planned.

On some, yes. On some others it is my room. The Chelsea song was mainly tracked right there in my mixing room. I like the sound of it. It if is an artificial reverb, it is an IR... but I have to remember which one. My computer knows... Waves IR-1 was used...or a Logic Spacedesigner.

Thanks for linking it and i have a lot of questions..can you describe your process using sideways v's (>>)jn,,,

What is a sideways v?

Interested in how often the board is coming into play from tracking to mixdown...
Are you doing a lot of tracking with the GL using the onboard pres and eq? If so im impressed...guitar mics? vox?

I used the board for tracking most of the Chelsea Williams stuff (all the lead vocals and ac gtrs, percussions, etc.), some of the Nathan McEuen stuff (all ld vocals, some gtrs and percussions), and very little of the Steve Martin stuff. For mixing it was pretty much similar, submixing things into 16 to 24 tracks to the console, using the EQ, and sometimes even the sends for a Lexicon MX400 I have here.

i understand the skill level bus driver thing..i get decent sounds..decent enough to get me smiling..im glad you answered the question about -boards maybe sounding like crap with tape- It was something i needed to ask.
Aren't Soundtracs boards simliar to Allen and Heaths?..or is that Soundcraft? I thought there was some relationship..designers leaving in a huff and starting a new outfit?

All consoles route audio. None of them are exactly alike. They might be designed similarly, or share some components, but really it comes down to how each console mfr. handles different things like power distribution, headroom capacity, and details like how they handle the mic preamp(crucial thing) and noise floor issues. some deal with these things better than others, some worse.

Hoping some other folks will link or post some samples of the Midas Venice, Soundcraft Delta, Soundtrac, one of those Yamahas, anything cool..link it.

I hope so too... it might help people like yourself looking for one for themselves.

Cheers

[KoffeeKommando]

Koffee..that board looks cool. Im going to read about it. The one i was talking about ,
RM800 i believe. different board in the same letter line..Yours looks beefier..the 800 is more modest im sure.

Yeah, it's a tank. It's 156 pounds or something. I built a custom cradle/stand for it from 2x6 Douglas Fir lumber.

I traded a tablet pc I got for almost free for the Mackie 32 8 bus. It came from a church and was in great shape. A week later I saw the Yamaha at a local music store. They had it marked down to $500 cause, ya know, who wants that old crap anyway right?

Everything worked on the board but the meter bridge bulbs. I made the owner a trade deal on the spot.

The bulbs were not made anymore but I found a replacement of the same size and value. Yamaha HAND SOLDERED them in. It took 4 hours of my best work to solder tiny leads on the bulbs and put them into the little rubber holders. The rubber was burned to the bulbs and I had to unstick it and repair. Hell job. But it came out perfect.

The Yamaha is all individual channel cards. Real analog components, not surface mount new tech stuff. It's all rebuildable. I've seen these Yamahas on craigs for around $700 sometimes.

I can't wait to actually record a full project on it. Dammit.

[T-rex]

Hoping some other folks will link or post some samples of the Midas Venice, Soundcraft Delta, Soundtrac, one of those Yamahas, anything cool..link it.

I hope so too... it might help people like yourself looking for one for themselves.

Cheers

I don't know, there are so many variables involved other than just the board. I mean if Michael Brauer mixed something through my humble board I know it would sound amazing where as my mix would, in comparison no doubt would sound god awful!

But if you are curious; here are some links for you for a soundcraft ghost. Everything was mixed through a soundcraft ghost, all eq was the ghost. All drums were tracked through the ghost, except snare. Some vocals and guitars were through the ghost, but the majority of those things were through outboard pres.

My band:
www.deermeet.net

This album is getting ready to come out on vinyl, I think the mixes on reverbnation are the mastered versions but I am not sure.
http://www.reverbnation.com/mercyacademy/

[Krackle]

Thanks TREX..that stuff sounds great..nice band, digging that sorta punk with shiny vocals.

What's the deal with the Soundtracs cult? These boards seem to have a very loyal following and get pretty much great reviews (forum boards and otherwise} for the most part. Im thinking about them but, again, leery of having to do a rehab project..

gl 2400

Midas

Soundtracs Topaz
Soundtracs PC Midi

Soundcraft various delta/ghost etc..

Crest?

Sort of interested in the Soundtracs bend right now..reading

Thought i'd revive this thread and see if any other Soundtracs fans can steer for a sec.

Im pretty sure i got poison ivy..not like a symbolic thing..a plant thing.

[Scodiddly]

I don't think the Venice is anything special, despite the Midas paint job. EQ, at least for me, doesn't seem to do anything useful. Plus the midrange EQ pots get weird with age and can cause some problems and it's a bitch to replace them.