"Folks played loud back then, ...

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Bro Shark
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Post by Bro Shark » Wed May 18, 2011 11:29 am

Sorry to derail the thread. Why I'm defensive is it triggered some hilarious/frightening flashbacks. I don't mean to offend anyone or come off like a jerk. Just totally being a wiseass, as usual.

I do have one serious point though. Loud bands are loud. They don't get un-loud, and if they do, well, everything stops working. It'd be like asking a shoegazer band to be less sensitive, or a singer/songwriter guy to be less sincere. I'm sure it's brutal being a soundguy but you gotta understand that most of the indie metal bands kinda know how to "mix themselves" onstage. It comes from playing basements, warehouses, squats and other venues that usually only have a PA for vocals and maybe kick.

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Post by JGriffin » Wed May 18, 2011 11:40 am

Bro Shark wrote:Sorry to derail the thread. Why I'm defensive is it triggered some hilarious/frightening flashbacks. I don't mean to offend anyone or come off like a jerk. Just totally being a wiseass, as usual.

I do have one serious point though. Loud bands are loud. They don't get un-loud, and if they do, well, everything stops working. It'd be like asking a shoegazer band to be less sensitive, or a singer/songwriter guy to be less sincere. I'm sure it's brutal being a soundguy but you gotta understand that most of the indie metal bands kinda know how to "mix themselves" onstage. It comes from playing basements, warehouses, squats and other venues that usually only have a PA for vocals and maybe kick.
no worries, man. I don't think you derailed, and you make a good point about the role of volume in certain types of music. 8)
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Post by vvv » Wed May 18, 2011 12:01 pm

Alla that said, IMO one of the loudest-sounding guitarists is Neil Young, and he usually plays a (modded) Deluxe.

But see here.
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Post by roygbiv » Wed May 18, 2011 1:29 pm

vvv wrote:Alla that said, IMO one of the loudest-sounding guitarists is Neil Young, and he usually plays a (modded) Deluxe.

But see here.
wow, thanks triple-v, that is a cool article about Neil Young. Now I want one of those Wizzer things.
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Post by vvv » Wed May 18, 2011 3:23 pm

Only real men can have Wizzers. :twisted:

Actually, that's a custom-built thing. I think I read somewhere that most all of his stuff is modded, and has been for years.

I have seen him a cuppla times; the last time he had most of Booker T & the MG's, but with Duck Dunn on bass, hadda be the mid 90's. So he's doing all this Stax/Volt-type stuff, Cropper's there, too, and then he unleashes.

Soundgarden had opened for that show, mebbe '95? He was just as powerful, his tone, I mean, with the MG's behind him, and I'm pretty sure it was the Deluxe.
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Post by trodden » Wed May 18, 2011 5:26 pm

Bro Shark wrote:Sorry to derail the thread. Why I'm defensive is it triggered some hilarious/frightening flashbacks. I don't mean to offend anyone or come off like a jerk. Just totally being a wiseass, as usual.

I do have one serious point though. Loud bands are loud. They don't get un-loud, and if they do, well, everything stops working. It'd be like asking a shoegazer band to be less sensitive, or a singer/songwriter guy to be less sincere. I'm sure it's brutal being a soundguy but you gotta understand that most of the indie metal bands kinda know how to "mix themselves" onstage. It comes from playing basements, warehouses, squats and other venues that usually only have a PA for vocals and maybe kick.
Exactly.

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Post by cjogo » Thu May 19, 2011 2:11 pm

We used Silvertone amps in the early 60's they doubled as our vocal PA in one channel ~&~ guitar in the other ... So not too loud. Like when the Beatles arrived in the larger arenas -- crowd beat the bands db :)


Not until the later 70's did we start to build our own PA/Monitor system..and started to rely more on our sound/engineer behind the desk ( my cousin for 3 years ) .. for our volume control .
We had a tri-amp setup > with 2 separate 18 in cabs ( for bass only ) / 2 ~ 15's / 2 horns / 4~10's / and 2 sets of Piezo tweeter arrays. A Crown 300 and a G&K & 2 Crown 150's : and the usual monitors Everything was 5/8 plywood >> weighed a ton. And we were mainly an acoustic band :roll: The 12 channel Kustom board - took 2 to carry.

I play almost strictly electronic drums these days --- so the band can not blame the drummer for the volume crescendos :lol:
Last edited by cjogo on Thu May 26, 2011 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jim Williams » Fri May 20, 2011 8:52 am

Back in "ye olde days" the club PA would be zero, you brought your own. Mostly it was 4x12 vertical "PA" cabinets loaded with guitar speakers, no horns. We would use a Fender Showman head with those 2 cabs. Others used the Shure "Vocalmaster" but that wasn't loud enough for us.

Vocal clarity and volume were always a problem, no one had ever seen a floor wedge back then.

Since the amps were not sent to the PA, the amp needed to fill the room. So we did.

Sometimes it was a bit over the top, the Blue Cheer at the Hollywood bowl in 1969 was quite an affair. They had 40 marshall stacks all across the stage all full up. Needless to say, the neighbors up the hills didn't take too kindly about it. Noise ordinances soon followed...

My buddies in Canned Heat played the Santa Monica Civic in 1969. Henry Vestin used a custom Frank Cooley TNT 1500 watt tube head with 16 dual 15" JBL loaded cabs. Soon most were heading for the exits as Frank was desperately pulling out pairs of KT-90 power tubes to "lessen" the pain.

Now days it's all about proportion. You select the amp for the room, that why you need more than one. I have a 12 watt modified Vibro Champ, an 80 watt modified 1966 Deluxe Reverb, 2 100 watt showman heads and the Basson Sound 120 watter and 4x12.

I get the same sound out of all of them. Tiny places I use the Deluxe Reverb. Placed on a bar stool behind my back playing my thin line hollow mahogany Telecaster I can still get my needed feedback. Larger places get a showman head and a 2x12. Outdoors it's the 120 watter and 4x12.
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Post by vvv » Fri May 20, 2011 5:47 pm

Jim Williams wrote:
Now days it's all about proportion. You select the amp for the room, that why you need more than one.
+1
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Post by cjogo » Fri May 20, 2011 7:09 pm

Do remember those SHure "Vocal Masters " .............
Been seeing more of the Bose L system for guitarist -- just right for most venues I frequent. Though have not attended a metal show since 71 > have no real appreciation of what the players have to load on stage , if they play loud.
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Post by willhouk » Mon May 23, 2011 10:17 am

I liked the Neil Young article. Thanks for the link. I thought this line was interesting, "Neil doesn't wear ear protection, and he's had a problem with that recently. I doubt if we'll be seeing this again soon. Right now he's gone into total acoustic." I think that is a pertinent point to remember. Most of us probably deal with hearing issues at some level. Whether we played punk clubs, or metal clubs, or whatever ear protection is critical.

When I was younger I was like, eh... screw it. I'll be fine. I kind of regret that now. Our ears are the most important link to the music we love. I always wear ear plugs at shows now, I think the music is much more enjoyable that way.
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Post by fossiltooth » Mon May 23, 2011 10:31 am

willhouk wrote:I liked the Neil Young article. Thanks for the link. I thought this line was interesting, "Neil doesn't wear ear protection, and he's had a problem with that recently. I doubt if we'll be seeing this again soon. Right now he's gone into total acoustic." I think that is a pertinent point to remember. Most of us probably deal with hearing issues at some level. Whether we played punk clubs, or metal clubs, or whatever ear protection is critical.

When I was younger I was like, eh... screw it. I'll be fine. I kind of regret that now. Our ears are the most important link to the music we love. I always wear ear plugs at shows now, I think the music is much more enjoyable that way.
Thanks, I've got to keep on reminding myself of that. Also: dig your sig.

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Post by sloth » Mon May 23, 2011 10:56 am

Bro Shark wrote:Sorry to derail the thread. Why I'm defensive is it triggered some hilarious/frightening flashbacks. I don't mean to offend anyone or come off like a jerk. Just totally being a wiseass, as usual.

I do have one serious point though. Loud bands are loud. They don't get un-loud, and if they do, well, everything stops working. It'd be like asking a shoegazer band to be less sensitive, or a singer/songwriter guy to be less sincere. I'm sure it's brutal being a soundguy but you gotta understand that most of the indie metal bands kinda know how to "mix themselves" onstage. It comes from playing basements, warehouses, squats and other venues that usually only have a PA for vocals and maybe kick.
I completely agree.

Sounds guys can never seem to understand that we want the vocals blended in with the music not riding high above it. We've had one guy getting on the stage to turn our amps down in the middle of our set!
When ever we do listen to them it always ends up being just vocals and drums, cymbals wash all over the guitars and you spend the whole time asking for more and more guitars and bass in the monitors so you can hear a tinny reproduction of what you could be hearing behind you.

I dream of a day when we can have our own engineer to work with.

Ok, rant over.

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Post by ckeene » Mon May 23, 2011 11:52 am

I was a teen in the 80s and started playing out in the 90s. So I don't know too much about the wild west days of live sound, other than from photos or anecdotes like these. It's incredible to hear all these stories about live sound innovation, as well as disasters.

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Post by cjogo » Wed May 25, 2011 10:53 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bswxaeyQDFI

Yes loud -- but controlled by the quality of the musicianship --- vocals out front ..guitars falling into their "place", maybe a little thin on bass > from today's standard and the drums with still plenty of punch~ from the simple micing.


Was the writing, back then, more stylized for the design of the equipment that landed on stage or we dragged along to the studio?

There was the sound we created in the garage/basement ... & that was all we could expect from our delivery > the rest was from the venues limitations.

Sitting behind the drums ~ I did not push the volume ... It was all about blending with the gear you owned & finding that balance/dynamics. And the gear accumulated was equal to how big your bandmates Fathers' stationwagon was > when you were 15 :-)
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