Bogus claims Re: OTB summing from Black Lion

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leigh
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Post by leigh » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:32 am

KennyLusk wrote:So in summing ITB if you are re-sampling from 96kHz down to 44.1kHz and rendering from 24 bit word length to 16 bit, the internal clock of your device is not involved?
Correct.

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Post by KennyLusk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:09 am

Thanks Leigh, intuitively I figured differently.
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Post by leigh » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:23 am

KennyLusk wrote:Thanks Leigh, intuitively I figured differently.
Yeah, understood... intuitively, it would seem like the clock would be involved in a sample rate change.

Which DAW do you use? In Pro Tools, if I remember right, it would make the ITB bounce to a temp file at 96K (or whatever the session's sample rate is), and then when the bounce is done, it runs the sample rate conversion as a separate step. On a modern CPU, the Pro Tools SRC pass happens fairly quickly, definitely not in real time.

cheers,
Leigh

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Post by KennyLusk » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:44 am

Leigh I use Sonar in a winxp sp3, when I bounce (sum) everything down to a single stereo track Sonar applies all buss effects (channel & Mains) at the same time and Sonar shows the signal passing through the Main Buss (at accelerated rates of course), which leads me to feel the internal clock is engaged with this process. Hence my intuitive conclusion.

I only sum ITB though for informal files to share with friends for commentary. When it comes to producing a final mix or pre-master I sum OTB through my mixer. To my ears OTB retains more pleasing dimensional qualities/characteristics. I don't mean to hijack the thread, just answering your question.
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Post by TV Lenny » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:46 pm

I am curious what BLA says too on this.

When I used MOTU converters I was very interested in their conversion and clock upgrade options. But I could never justify spending the money on the converters. At the time I had a 24i/o and was looking at over $1k of upgrades from BLA. I ended up just selling the hardware and getting a really nice converter for just a little more than what the cost of the Motu plus upgrades would have cost. I have always been intrigued anyone would spend the money on the upgrades.

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Post by joel hamilton » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:36 pm

There was that book, "Mastering audio" by Bob Katz, that had a pretty thorough set of examples and explanations about exactly this situation.

If you are ITB, then time simply does not effect frame by frame playback of the song.

I could do a "bounce to disk", and change the clock rate on my outboard clock by 3% up and down the entire time it is bouncing, and the resulting bounced file plays completely fine and normally, at the right speed.

If it is film, the playback jitter and/or speed up , speed down of the frame rate would have no impact whatsoever on the spacing of the physical film frames themselves..
So if you then played that same film back on proper equipment: no problems.

This is only a partial analogy, obviously... but it is a way to visualize the time domain vs what the time domain actually does for you here. Not computer clock, audio side of things, controlling sample rate.

I really have done stupid stuff like the bounce example above.
I am talking about experience, rather than a fudamental knowledge of computer tech, or programming.
regardless: if you bring it out of the box, it is subject to all sorts of realities that dont exist in the virtual world.

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Post by Jettison » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:44 pm

The BLA upgrades are pricey. But when you see what you get as far as choice audiophile caps, separate power supply for the signal path, better quieter op amps...well, a lot of people go with the upgrades and are very happy and notice a big difference. What was that nice converter anyhoo?
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Post by TV Lenny » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:04 pm

Bob Katz book is a great reference to have on hand too. Just like Phillip Giddings Audio Designs Setup & Installations book.

Jettison - I understand. I do think they add value to the gear and are an improvement for sure. I just didn't personally feel they were the right route for me. I am currently using SSL Alphalink converters.

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Post by The Scum » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:19 pm

(at accelerated rates of course), which leads me to feel the internal clock is engaged with this process.
The "at accelerated rates" is the key here. If it's happening in anything other than real time (such as bouncing a 5 minute song in 2 minutes), it's not using the sample word clock for the bounce. It's just calculating the results as quickly as it can.

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Post by kslight » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:02 am

Jettison wrote:The BLA upgrades are pricey. But when you see what you get as far as choice audiophile caps, separate power supply for the signal path, better quieter op amps...well, a lot of people go with the upgrades and are very happy and notice a big difference. What was that nice converter anyhoo?
Like hot-rodding a Kia. To each their own but if you shop around you can get better investments in actual converters for much less, not confine it to a cheap soundcard.

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Post by eeldip » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:02 am

if you are planning on winning the race, that hot rodded kia might just be the way to go.

reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQSQAz9v6c

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Post by trodden » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:52 am

kslight wrote:
Jettison wrote:The BLA upgrades are pricey. But when you see what you get as far as choice audiophile caps, separate power supply for the signal path, better quieter op amps...well, a lot of people go with the upgrades and are very happy and notice a big difference. What was that nice converter anyhoo?
Like hot-rodding a Kia. To each their own but if you shop around you can get better investments in actual converters for much less, not confine it to a cheap soundcard.
Pfffftt...

My hot rodded Kia kicks ass!!!

I spent less money modding my previously owned gear, which I have been using for years, rather than buying new stuff that would also probably have the need for a new computer as well and do the job equally if that.

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Post by KennyLusk » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:10 pm

At the time I had BLA do the TweakHead mod on my (2 year old) 1814fw I didn't have $850 for an RME (or better) interface, but I did have $500 for the mod. Since I already owned the 1814 I spent $500 to get something worth $850+, is the way I look at it.
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Post by leigh » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:20 pm

The Scum wrote:
KennyLusk wrote:(at accelerated rates of course), which leads me to feel the internal clock is engaged with this process.
The "at accelerated rates" is the key here. If it's happening in anything other than real time (such as bouncing a 5 minute song in 2 minutes), it's not using the sample word clock for the bounce. It's just calculating the results as quickly as it can.
Yep, exactly.

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Post by trodden » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:59 pm

KennyLusk wrote:At the time I had BLA do the TweakHead mod on my (2 year old) 1814fw I didn't have $850 for an RME (or better) interface, but I did have $500 for the mod. Since I already owned the 1814 I spent $500 to get something worth $850+, is the way I look at it.
Exactly.

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