Bogus claims Re: OTB summing from Black Lion

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jgimbel
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Post by jgimbel » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:44 pm

I don't really expect this to get "solved" any more than it is - the company wrote something that many of us here feel is BS jargon, the company either thinks otherwise or doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake. I don't really think anything else can be done.

However, I entirely disagree with this "who gives a shit" idea here..yes of course it's not nearly as important how your gear sounds and what you do with it, but there HAS to be a line somewhere, things have to be right. If places are promoting something that's not true, well..that's obviously not right. While the sound is what's most important, confusing/not backed up language in stuff like this has really made an industry of shitty gear grow. Not saying AT ALL that BLA stuff is shitty - I think they sound like a great company and I don't at all think this one situation necessarily reflects the entire company/their products. However, ads for amps that are really pieces of junk but say they're better than a ridiculously sweet vintage amp have mislead a lot of beginners and just crowded the market with tons of junky pieces of gear that are sold almost purely on the gullibility of customers who aren't experienced enough yet to know the difference. One could say that all this crappy gear out there makes it better because then the great gear really rises to the top, but it's hard to deny there isn't a ton of stuff that is most often (not entirely, but very often) used just because of its name. It'd be kind of nice to be able to look to buy a compressor and know exactly what you're getting without having to sift through these ridiculous blurbs that may or may not be complete BS.

I'm taking this a little far right now I know, not trying to act like this mistake of wording is the responsible for the destruction of the world or something, but it doesn't seem like THAT much of a stretch to think companies should be truthful in what they're promoting. It's not anyone else's job to control this, the company is the only one who has the choice of whether or not to be writing something that's accurate.
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Post by Scodiddly » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:15 am

It raises the question of whether their other claims are false.

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Post by Jim Williams » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:06 am

Pro audio used to have a means of benchmarking and comparing performance.

They were called 'specifications'.

Today those are about as rare as a non-squashed CD.

They have been replaced by ads and 'claims'. Throw in an endorsement and that's all you need these days to fool people.

P.T. Barnum was right.
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Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:15 am

Scodiddly wrote:It raises the question of whether their other claims are false.
Yep. This has turned me off from considering their gear. plenty of great converters out there.

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Post by leigh » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:47 am

subatomic pieces wrote:
Scodiddly wrote:It raises the question of whether their other claims are false.
Yep. This has turned me off from considering their gear. plenty of great converters out there.
I will say, the dude (well, person - he/she still hasn't signed an actual name to any of their emails) at BLA does seem to have done a lot of advanced research into converter design. From the issues they have brought up on email, they seem to know their stuff.

But that said, they also refuse to discuss DSP summing sui generis, without bringing output D/A converters into the picture. And that is befuddling.

Again, their original published claim, that I am disputing, is "The DSP required to sum individual channels into a stereo pair is prone to clock-based errors".

Take out that specifying middle clause (which doesn't alter the meaning), and you get "DSP is prone to clock-based errors". If that is true, I would certainly like to understand how and why.

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Post by vvv » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:41 pm

This stuff is way over my head, but it was interesting to google, "DSP is prone to clock-based errors".
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NICE WITCH HUNT

Post by enginerd » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:40 pm

So nice witch hunt here, when was the last time you closed your eyes and listened to your gear. Has anyone of you ever tried this summing box? You have a lot of nothing to say, argue all you want about BLA verbage, get a life, better yet, get a studio. Listen to your gear. ITB summing is a joke, to say your computer is perfect, what are you a terminator? Audio was never meant to be bounced, it's that simple, I have no scientific jargon to back that up, I tell you what my ears say, NO THANKS. DSP Errors or not, doesn't sound good. I'm no tech, but all conversion requires clocking, DSP, BLA, or CIA, it is clocked. Not a tech, don't ask me for proof. I like my BLA modded 002, I take that "clocked" sweet "digital to analog" conversion out of my computer into a PM8 or any console and it sounds better. "Sounds Better" no science, just audio. I am sure this will piss people off, but a friend referred me to this discussion, and I am disgusted. Of course BLA isn't responding to this, have ever looked at the forums? There is a lot of people who have never owned a piece of BLA gear attacking them, TAKE A NUMBER MAN. Also isn't there a disclaimer at the bottom of their email saying your conversation is private? Why would they respond, you aren't playing by the rules.

Last, you don't trust them? Don't buy it, I don't blame you, keep buying the gear Mix Magazine is telling you to buy. It sounds like BLA answered your question and you didn't like the answer. BUMMER. Someone please end this witch hunt.

A witch-hunt is a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic, mass hysteria and lynching, but in historical instances also legally sanctioned and involving official witchcraft trials. SUBMERGE BLA IF THEY DROWN THEY WERE NOT A WITCH

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Post by palinilap » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:11 pm

Just playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think anyone was arguing that analog summing isn't better, I think most agree on that. It was more of a comment on not-so-forthright advertising tactics.

And for the record, I own a Tweakhead 002, a first generation Sparrow, and absolutely love them both. BL does great work.

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Re: NICE WITCH HUNT

Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:22 pm

enginerd wrote:So nice witch hunt here, when was the last time you closed your eyes and listened to your gear. Has anyone of you ever tried this summing box? You have a lot of nothing to say, argue all you want about BLA verbage, get a life, better yet, get a studio. Listen to your gear. ITB summing is a joke, to say your computer is perfect, what are you a terminator? Audio was never meant to be bounced, it's that simple, I have no scientific jargon to back that up, I tell you what my ears say, NO THANKS. DSP Errors or not, doesn't sound good. I'm no tech, but all conversion requires clocking, DSP, BLA, or CIA, it is clocked. Not a tech, don't ask me for proof. I like my BLA modded 002, I take that "clocked" sweet "digital to analog" conversion out of my computer into a PM8 or any console and it sounds better. "Sounds Better" no science, just audio.
Sorry, but this is entirely subjective. Both you and BLA would be more accurate to say that analog summing sounds DIFFERENT than digital summing. BLA blows it by just making up some bullshit science that CANNOT BE HEARD. You blow it by treating your own opinion as fact.
enginerd wrote:I am sure this will piss people off, but a friend referred me to this discussion, and I am disgusted. Of course BLA isn't responding to this, have ever looked at the forums? There is a lot of people who have never owned a piece of BLA gear attacking them, TAKE A NUMBER MAN. Also isn't there a disclaimer at the bottom of their email saying your conversation is private? Why would they respond, you aren't playing by the rules.
If you're not a shill for them, which you probably are, I probably have less respect for this post than if you were. Witch hunt?!?!? please.... This company attempted to use erroneous science in some exaggerated ad copy in order to make their product sound more desirable. Then, here on the internet, where words, photos, specs, etc. are quite important topics of discussion, someone questioned the verbiage. The community here that you know nothing of and still trash, rightly suggested that the OP contact the company. It was commonly believed that the company would respond and clear this up. They did not. The ball is in their court. And, they WILL respond. Watch and see. They'd be foolish not to.
enginerd wrote:Last, you don't trust them? Don't buy it, I don't blame you, keep buying the gear Mix Magazine is telling you to buy. It sounds like BLA answered your question and you didn't like the answer. BUMMER. Someone please end this witch hunt.
Fuck off. You don't know anyone here. And, we don't know you. So, fuck yourself. Their answer wasn't sufficient to satisfy this large potential customer base. The's why they'll respond. And, that's why you sound like a pathetic shill.
enginerd wrote:A witch-hunt is a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic, mass hysteria and lynching, but in historical instances also legally sanctioned and involving official witchcraft trials. SUBMERGE BLA IF THEY DROWN THEY WERE NOT A WITCH

Luke: Your overconfidence is your weakness.
The Emperor: Your faith in your friends is yours
ENGINERD: Your overconfidence in your computer is your weakness
Leigh: Your faith in BLA is yours
Meh. If you stuck around here, instead of just trolling, you'd probably get better at the humor thing.

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Post by chris harris » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:27 pm

I'd still be happy to USE a piece of BLA gear. I've heard nothing but great things about their stuff.... But, when I choose gear to purchase for my own studio, I do consider the honesty and integrity of the people making it. I bet they'll clear this all up before too long.

I think that they should just lose the phony science and sell their product on the UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED reality that ITB and OTB mixing sound DIFFERENT, and that their product has something to offer those who prefer the sound of OTB.

I'm more interested in what their product offers than I am in their flawed critiques of the alternatives.

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Re: NICE WITCH HUNT

Post by leigh » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:46 pm

enginerd wrote:So nice witch hunt here...
Hey there first-time caller. No need for ad hominem attacks. Just explain this very simple statement, and you and/or BLA win this particular debate:

"DSP is prone to clock-based errors"

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Post by vvv » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:06 pm

Could the ad hominem attacks be sui generis? :twisted:

(This befuddled mind wants to know!)
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Post by leigh » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:37 pm

vvv wrote:Could the ad hominem attacks be sui generis? :twisted:

(This befuddled mind wants to know!)
Ha! Perhaps...

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Post by joel hamilton » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:02 am

Okay, everyone.
Thank you for your input.

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Post by enginerd » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:00 pm

Wow, sorry I don't like your computer...
This was my first time here, I actually don't like forums, I feel that they are equivalent of reading about 2 virgins argue over what apple product to masturbate to.

I understand you don't take to kind to strangers, don't blame you.

So I could give 2 shits about winning a debate. I believe that at some point we are saying the same thing. Digital summing and analog summing are DIFFERENT. I think that's all BLA is saying. And you might be right BLA can't prove this DSP error thing, so here is my question, can it be measured? On either side? If not you are at a stale mate. All this talk, can you prove DSP is not prone to clock based errors? That would shut both you and BLA up. And when I ask about proving, I'm not talking about text from some site. I know BLA has done their homework, it's backed in the quality of their products. What can I say? They changed my world, and I AM A NOBODY. You don't know me and I don't know you.

Opinions are like assholes everybody has one

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