Anyone tried the Cloudlifter???

reedblack · Post by **reedblack** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:20 am

I came across this product as I was drunk driving on the web the other day:

http://cloudmicrophones.com/products/

The Cloudlifter. Phantom-Powered Ribbon Mic Activator. Has anyone tried it?

I have a pair of Royer R-121s, which I love, but sometimes encounter circumstances where the noise floor is too high for my taste. Recording Debussy's (Piano) Preludes in a large auditorium comes to mind. Aside from trading up to R-122s, maybe this is the solution I've been looking for.

But, website claims aside, I do wonder to what degree this changes the character of the microphone? I do not trust any product description that claims straight-wire-with-gain specs.

Thanks everyone!

Reed

vvv · Post by **vvv** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:03 am

There's a similar product, I believe, called "FEThead", or mebbe, "FEThed" that has gotten good reviews herein; UTSF.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:15 am

These are fet line boosters. The Fethead uses a pair, the Cloud uses 2 matched pairs. Roger sent me one to test here. I also have a Fethead to test as well.

These are new products, a new concept of amplification, an in line booster for weak output mics. As such they need 'investigatin'.

Roger doesn't have the test gear I have here so I volunteered to test with the Audio Precision System One A.

The goal is to provide some benchmarks for these and to compare performance. I plan to test THD vs amplitude, THD vs frequency, IMD tests, baseline noise tests, gain, frequency response, CMRR, etc.

I will post the results on the forums when these are done. Users will have a good basis of comparisons and should be able to determine which if any of these are suitable for their use.

Stay tuned...

nick_a · Post by **nick_a** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:23 am

Cool! Thanks Jim! I was wondering about these products...

ofajen · Post by **ofajen** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:27 am

Thanks, Jim! This was one of the few pieces of gear that I thought might actually be worth picking up.

Cheers,

Otto

reedblack · Post by **reedblack** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:23 am

Very helpful, Jim. Keep us posted on what you find.

One question I have is how this product's topology compares to that of the R-122.They state on their site that the "free gain" is accomplished using their toroidal transformer. Phantom power is only used for impedance conversion. So then, is Royer's proprietary head comparable to the Cloudlifter, or the Fethead? Or does Royer's dedicated circuit perform the task more musically?

In trying to explain their product, the company tries to essentially sell the device as a pre-pre-amp, which is not exactly what it does, as far as I can tell. So, little help from there.

Reed

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:50 pm

Wouldn't listening to them be a better evaluation?

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:29 pm

I have the TapeOp review unit right now. You should be seeing a review in the issue after the next one. The short version is that although it's not always a perfect magic bullet, it does exactly what it's supposed to, is very well-built, and I think it's a good relatively inexpensive substitute for a high-gain "ribbon"-type mic preamp. I'm keeping the review unit.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:34 pm

reedblack wrote:Very helpful, Jim. Keep us posted on what you find.

One question I have is how this product's topology compares to that of the R-122.They state on their site that the "free gain" is accomplished using their toroidal transformer. Phantom power is only used for impedance conversion. So then, is Royer's proprietary head comparable to the Cloudlifter, or the Fethead? Or does Royer's dedicated circuit perform the task more musically?

In trying to explain their product, the company tries to essentially sell the device as a pre-pre-amp, which is not exactly what it does, as far as I can tell. So, little help from there.

Reed

I believe Royer make an active ribbon with transistors run under phantom power like Blue does with the Woodpecker, although that mic has top boost EQ built in. All of these ribbons use an internal step up transformer as they are very low impedance, like a wire's worth.

These in-line boosters add about +25 db gain for any passive mic, ribbon or dynamic. The idea is to get low output mics more level so your mic pre doesn't need to be cranked up so far. Since some preamps sort of fall apart at higher gains, this can be a clearer alternative. As for the sound, many have reported on the sonics, mostly saying there arn't any. Design wise, the dual matched fet design on the Cloudlifter may provide better CMRR and noise imunity from noisy phantom supplies, but that's to be tested too. I plan to test under clean phantom power and an unregulated sloppy supply to see what happens on the noise and CMRR tests.

I'll also test noise with a mic preamp in line to determine if the mic preamp EIN degrades at all. I'll be using the High Speed mic pre as it's self noise is -136 db EIN.

reedblack · Post by **reedblack** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:06 am

So, number one, I ordered a Cloudlifter for myself to see how it works with the R-121s. I'll report back as soon as I try it out.

But the more I'm thinking about it, the more I realize that I don't quite understand how the built-in amplifier of a mic differs from the preamp it's connected to. So I wonder if any of you who are clear on the subject, perhaps you, Jim, could give me a quick 101. (or, point me in the right direction!)

I've always assumed that you need the mic's internal amp & transformer simply to drive any length of cable, but that otherwise it is performing the same function that a preamp is. In my way of thinking, the only reason that you don't simply wire the capsule directly to the preamp is because it would have to be impractically close to the pre.

But if that's the case, wouldn't a product like the Cloudlifter, which must be attached to the mic via an already-lengthy cable, already be seeing the inherent loss of information that a passive ribbon mic incurs? Isn't it irreversible? How does a circuit like the Cloudlifter differ at all from the workings of my preamp, which I keep on 2000 ohms input impedance, and use to add the 40-70 dB of gain? My preamp is deriving the impedance conversion as well as the gain from "power," just as the Cloudlifter is accomplishing it's task with phantom power.

What am I missing?

Thanks folks.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:46 am

"To be determined". Whether noise is added or not, whether the mic preamp EIN spec degrades or not, whether the THD is better with it at lower gains or better without it at higher gains are things to be tested.

The concept is to overcome noisy preamps at higher gains or excessive THD at higher gains, not to affect cable driving.

ofajen · Post by **ofajen** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:37 am

Jim Williams wrote:The concept is to overcome noisy preamps at higher gains or excessive THD at higher gains, not to affect cable driving.

There can also be issues with low frequency roll off at higher gain on compact console preamps. Also, passive ribbons and other dynamics may perform better when loaded by the (presumably higher) input impedance of the pre-preamp. Cloudlifter input impedance is about 3K ohm, IIRC.

Cheers,

Otto

roscoenyc · Post by **roscoenyc** » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:27 pm

cgarges wrote:I have the TapeOp review unit right now. You should be seeing a review in the issue after the next one. The short version is that although it's not always a perfect magic bullet, it does exactly what it's supposed to, is very well-built, and I think it's a good relatively inexpensive substitute for a high-gain "ribbon"-type mic preamp. I'm keeping the review unit.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

We've had one for about a year now. The results are different with different mics but for us it has helped out a real lot with the Royer 121 and also the Beyer M-500.

cgarges · Post by **cgarges** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:59 pm

roscoenyc wrote:We've had one for about a year now. The results are different with different mics but for us it has helped out a real lot with the Royer 121 and also the Beyer M-500.

I've had similar results so far. I'm trying to round up an external phantom power supply to check it out on some high-output mics without using an outboard mic pre. Just curious how well that would work.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:31 am

Try it with a hotty like a Neumann U-87 AI. The THD vs amplitude sweeps will show how much level these can take before distortion rises. The THD vs frequency will show if THD is linear or rises in the top end.

I need to finish a couple of projects here before I get into these.

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Anyone tried the Cloudlifter???

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